Ultimate Sniper Rifle – 3 Inches at 1000 Yards – TacticalRifles.net

by Administrator on May 8, 2011

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Our Tactical Rifles .308 is very much like the U.S. Army M24 Sniper Rifle like Ben carried in both Iraq and Afghanistan.
Our Tactical Rifles .308 is very much like the U.S. Army M24 Sniper Rifle like Ben carried in both Iraq and Afghanistan, but it is modeled after the M40 marine rifle and has a shorter action than the M24.
A formidable piece of equipment, topped with our Vortex Razor HD.
The official product shot of the 3-12 power model. Note that it has a parallax adjustment knob that the others in the line do not have.
This rifle was built on a Remington 700 action, but Tactical Rifles will be creating their own “Chimera” actions soon that will even surpass what they can do on the 700s.
This rifle was built on a Remington 700 action, but Tactical Rifles will be creating their own “Chimera” actions soon that will even surpass what they can do on the 700s.
This 3 inch group with Hornady Superformance Match was the best that came out that day at 1000 yards.
This 3 inch group with Hornady Superformance Match was the best that came out that day at 1000 yards.
Shooting the Tactical Rifles .308 at Manatee Range.
Shooting the Tactical Rifles .308 at Manatee Range.
We don't know how many rounds went through this ragged hole at 100 yards while Ben was waiting for the range to go cold. Officially it is 5 rounds into .51 inches.
We don’t know how many rounds went through this ragged hole at 100 yards while Ben was waiting for the range to go cold. Officially it is 5 rounds into .51 inches.
1.5 inches at 500 yards with regular Hornady Superformance.
1.5 inches at 500 yards with regular Hornady Superformance.
A solid 3.5” at 1000 yards with standard Hornady Match ammunition.
A solid 3.5” at 1000 yards with standard Hornady Match ammunition.
Hornady Superformance shoots into just over 3” at 1000 yards as well.
Hornady Superformance shoots into just over 3” at 1000 yards as well.

Tactical Rifles
www.tacticalrifles.net
Email:- info@tacticalrifles.net
Phone:- 352-999-0599

One of the most misunderstood subjects in all of shooting sports is the issue of long range accuracy. What does an “accurate” rifle consist of, and how do you measure accuracy, accurately? Is extreme accuracy even possible?  A cantaloupe at 1000 yards? That is better than ½ a mile away. Can one of these super accurate, $3,000+ rifle platforms really make these numbers, or do they just advertise them?

To answer that question we commissioned a custom rifle from Tactical Rifles Inc., just to see what you get, and if the accuracy claims could actually be proven out, not just at 100 yards, not at 500 yards, but actually shooting at 1000 yards. These rifles are advertised at “gauranteed ½ MOA” so the expectations were extremely high. With our resident U.S. Army Sniper Ben Becker  at the helm, though, the Tactical Rifles gun not only proved out ½ MOA. It actually came out to ¼ or so, the size of a cantaloupe at 1000 yards. This is amazing stuff .

If you haven’t been following our discussion in GunsAmerica Magazine and Blog about MOA, and overall accuracy, I’ll re-cover some basics about what we are talking about.

Accuracy is sometimes incorrectly defined as whether a rifle shoots to point of aim. I have been at the range several times where someone commented that a rifle was “accurate” because it could hit the bullseye on the target, once.

Accuracy, when we talk about it in the context of a rifle, is not whether it shoots to point of aim. That is just a measure of sight adjustment.   Accuracy is how close to the same impact the rifle will shoot shot after shot after shot. Without a vice type of shooting rest, human error is a factor in most testing, so we try to use an established, good shooter who we know can make consistent shots time after time after time.  How close they get those shots together is the accuracy measurement for the gun at that time and in those circumstances.

Generally you measure accuracy in “groups,” which are groups of shots, and what you are measuring is the spread from center to center of the outermost reaching shots in the groups. The more shots in the group, the more likely they are to spread out, either through human error or the variation of the platform you are testing, or even simply via a gust of wind you didn’t see coming.

When you see the term “minute of angle” or MOA, this is the comparison term we use to describe the accuracy that a rifle is capable of.  MOA is an angle or radius measurement that measures 1/60th of one degree in a circle. If you slice a circle into 360 slices of pie, then each slice into 60 slices, each slice is then one MOA.

My high school physics teacher (Mr. Nugent and no it wasn’t Ted) used to use the analogy of a “butter gun.”  I don’t know where he got it, but it still works for me today.  “If you have a gun that shoots exactly wide enough to cover one piece of toast, and you move the butter gun twice the distance away, it will cover 4 pieces of toast, or 2 x 2.”

This is the way we think about accuracy. If we know that five shots out of a rifle will all fall within 1 inch at 100 yards (actual 1.047 inches), we say that this is one 3600th of a circle in radius from the muzzle of the gun, or one “minute of angle.” At 200 yards this opens up to 2” (x 2” to follow the butter gun approach). At 300 yards it is 3” and so on.

That measure of angle that we can get the bullets to fall into is what we consider the accuracy of the gun.  Tactical Rifles guarantees ½ MOA.  That is ½ inch at 100 yards, and 2 ½ inches at 500 yards, and 5 inches at 1000 yards. As you get further away with your target, and again, we are talking better than half a mile at 1000 yards, environment factors will get in your way of shooting small groups, but all you can do is try, and try Ben did with this Tactical Rifles .308 built on a Remington 700 action.

Here are some of the things that come into play when you are trying to shoot small groups at long distances.

The Rifle Itself

This is the most important thing, and the hardest to fix if it doesn’t work like it should. Just like in cooking where if you don’t start with great ingredients you can’t ever become a great chef, with long range rifle shooting you will never get anywhere if you don’t have a rifle that is capable of performing.

The accuracy of the rifle depends on many factors. One is the quality of the barrel itself. A high quality match grade barrel has been cut slowly so the cutting tool doesn’t wobble and make the cut inconsistent. A custom rifle maker like Tactical Rifles uses barrels that are hand lapped and fitted with a match chamber that is exactly the dimensions of the SAAMI cartridge specification. That way the match grade rounds don’t have room to cant themselves from shot to shot. To a a precision of a thousandth of an inch the barrels and chambers are cut to exacting specifications, to achieve accuracy in the ¼ to ½ MOA range.

The action of the rifle is also tuned to the specific barrel that it is mated to. This includes custom bolts and extracting systems. This rifle was built on a Remington 700 action, but Tactical Rifles has now begun making their own “Chimera” actions which are patterned on the Remington 700 but are somewhat different.

Experience and expertise go a long way at this stage of the game, and it is why you can’t just hire any gunsmith fresh out of gunsmithing school to build you a custom rifle. Companies like Tactical Rifles have been doing this for a generation, and the machining techniques they have developed are not something you can pick up or read in a book.  Most good custom rifle makers have several month wait times and are never caught up to their wait list, and that is the case with Tactical Rifles. If you want a gun for summer, you should order it in early spring. Even now is late for an expectation of summer competition shooting.

Barrels on super accurate rifles are generally free floated in the stock these days as opposed to fiberglass bedded. The action itself will sit down into the stock bedded, but the barrel floats free, so that nothing touches it causing harmonic distortion,  which can throw accuracy off by quite a bit.

The trigger on this rifle is match grade, adjustable, set at 2.8lbs. What that means is that it takes 2.8 lbs of pressure to drop the hammer. This is extremely sensitive and is much lighter than the standard hunting triggers you may have experienced.  A match grade trigger also has no drag or takeup. It breaks clean and light.

Ammunition

We try to disclose as much as possible that Hornady is the ammunition sponsor at GunsAmerica for all of our editorial including the Magazine and Blog.  But as we have explained in other articles about accuracy, consistent ammunition is as important as the rifle, and it was Hornady that revolutionized this field in America.

Hornady’s entry into the ammunition field brought a whole new perspective to the way we think about rifle ammunition and how consistent it should be. Not that long ago you either hand loaded, or you didn’t have a chance to compete in competition. It was a big score to find some U.S. Military surplus match ammunition, stamped LC (for Lake City) Match.  Rifles shooting into 2 and 3 inches was the norm, not the exception, or problem, and the whole idea of consistent factory ammunition was not something that anyone even discussed, let alone expected.

Now we have several brands of excellent accurate ammo on the shelf, but I still consider the leader to be Hornady.  Ben  shot several lines of Hornady on the same day through this and two other rifles and all of them shined beyond what the rifle maker promised. The other two articles, on the CZ 550 heavy barrel .308 and the Armalite AR-10 are yet to come and you will be equally surprised. All of these I consider the product of unparalleled Hornady ammunition.

Optics and Rings

You may have already read our review of the Vortex Razor HD Riflescope, and it was used for these tests.  There is no substitute for a good optic when it comes to long range shooting.

Something many people don’t realize is that the scope rings can be as important to your shooting as the scope itself. Rings that are not perfectly concentric will bend the tube of the scope slightly, even though you won’t be able to see this, and throw off your ability to make the impossible groups at 1000 yards. We use the Vortex rings that you can get with the scope from Vortex and, though I have no idea what it would be like without them, with them it feels as if we have eliminated yet another variable that can throw off our shooting.

Impossible Groups

The groups that you see here in the pictures were shot in front of several witnesses Manatee Gun & Archery Club in Myakka City FL.  Just about everyone who went there to shoot that day ended up watching Ben to see just how he was going to do with that $3,500 rifle, $2000 scope, a $200 Lead Sled, and box after box of factory Hornady ammo.

The rifle itself came with a test target showing 3 shots into .21 inches at 100 yards. This translates to roughly ¼ MOA, so Ben had his job cut out for him to compete with the guy who shot the test target.

I should describe the methodology first, because you would probably think we are cherry picking targets here from among many that were far worse. That is not the case. In fact with the time constraints of the day and a busy range on Sunday, where calling the range “cold” only happens several times a day, there was no cherry picking possible. Ben’s methodology was to get the particular round on target that he was using (all Hornady but different lines), then shoot the test target, then move on. A total of three guns were shot that day at ranges of 100, 500 and 1000 yards, and one was also shot at 300 yards.   Each of the targets you see here were mostly one of a kind, with varying ammo at the given distances. This is how the rifle shot, period, and any minor human error incorporated into these groups were what happened at the time. There was not enough time to shoot a bunch and pick the best.

First we had to test the gun at 100 yards, since we had that test target. The problem is, on a busy range you can’t just go downrange every three rounds, so Ben, getting bored waiting, kept putting rounds through the same hole. The target we have for this rifle at 100 yards was officially 5 rounds, but we have no idea how many rounds actually went through that hole. The hole measures .51 inches, double the test target, but the test target was 3 rounds, and we have no idea if that was in fact cherry picked. Ben proved the ¼ MOA out at 500 and 1000 yards regardless.

At 500 yards, one and quarter inch would be exactly ¼ MOA. Don’t forget, Tactical Rifles guarantees a ½ MOA, not ¼, but Ben’s groups of roughly 1.5 inches were well in the tolerances of ¼ MOA. ½ MOA would be 2.5 inches.

At 1000 yards, where a small gust of wind can throw your group off entirely, Ben had several groups in the 3” range with all three types of Hornady ammunition he used in the test. The best came from Superformance Match at almost exactly 3 inches. For a five shot group this isn’t world record territory, but the world records are shot at 44 inch targets, Ben did this on a standard 12” Dirty Bird. The 500 yard shots were done on even smaller Winchester targets you find at Wal-Mart. We had no idea going in that Ben would be shooting world class groups and next time we go out with this rifle we will be be shooting the official NRA 1000 yard targets.

We hope to see Ben to go Camp Perry this year with this rifle and scope just to see how he can do against the guys who do this as an obsession. For this outing we were impressed enough to want to try it again.

Ordering a Rifle:

The biggest complaint that I hear from our friends at Tactical Rifles is that they have to deal with vacillating wannabes who wish they could order a custom rifle but don’t follow through with actually ordering one.  Don’t tell them I told you that!  They might get upset.

Therefore, if you really are interested in a custom rifle that can actually perform at 1000 yards the way most of of wish we could, please consider if you really are committed to spending at least $3,500 for the  purchase of a lifetime.  Nobody can tell you if it is the right choice for you, but the guys over there have been doing this long enough that they can walk you through the process of the choices you need to make before committing your order.

If you are in a hurry, I have been told that rifles made on Remington 700 actions can be ready for competition during the summer. The new Chimera action from Tactical Rifles is going to be a while yet in the waiting, and I’m not sure I would hold up your order for something that most people won’t be able to tell the difference in, and that will add a substantial cost to your rifle.

The good news is that it’s all possible. Extreme accuracy at 1000 yards isn’t a dream, or an impossibility, or something reserved for guys with 30 lb. rifles they needed a second mortgage to build. These are custom rifles less expensive than a used Honda motorcycle and probably less than your property taxes you get nothing for.  You may even eat 1000 Big Macs in your lifetime and pay more for those.  If you dream of shooting for real at 1000 yards, treat yourself to a custom rifle. You won’t regret it.

Whether you can actually shoot like Ben remains to be seen. The boy has talent that’s for sure. But you won’t know until you have the proper tool for the job.  Stay tuned for more on Ben and the Tactical Rifles .308. It is going to be an interesting summer.  Next time expect actual cantaloupes!

Tactical Rifles
www.tacticalrifles.net
Email:- info@tacticalrifles.net
Phone:- 352-999-0599

{ 169 comments… read them below or add one }

Keith Herrington May 9, 2011 at 9:44 am

I think it’s more a testiment to the shooter than it is the gun. Impressive.

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Rockmeister772 May 9, 2011 at 12:41 pm

I believe that the fella did as good as what was stated……..there are comp. shooters, and then there are snipers. And I would bet my money on a sniper any day. Most people have no idea the training these boys go thru, and Hornaday does make some awesome ammo. If I can head shoot a doe at 350 yards with a stock 30-06 pump rifle, I think this fella can do 3″ at 1000. Rock on, Ben!!!!!

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Andrew May 9, 2011 at 1:27 pm

+1

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Zack May 9, 2011 at 6:42 pm

sounds like the Doe’s head ran into your bullet

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Matt D. June 5, 2011 at 11:31 pm

Agreed…Great shooting.

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David Twitty May 9, 2011 at 10:49 am

I don’t believe either the 500 yard or 100 yard groups are legitimate. The 1000 yard group is as good as the world record at that range, set with a much heavier rifle, far higher magnification scope, more accrurate caliber, and much more accurate ammo. You people must think all of your readers will believe anything you put in print. I have a friend in Minnesota that won second place in the state 1000 yard competition last year, with a 15 pound rifle, very expensive custom action, very expensive custom barrel, a Nightforce 5 X 25 power scope, and perfectly identical handloads, after months of practice with that rifle and ammo. His best group was about 6 inches. He has been shooting long range bench rest (800 yards to one mile) for several decades, and knows what he is doing. There isn’t a factory, off-the-shelf, 308 rifle with factory ammo, using an only 12 power scope, made anywhere in the world that can shoot a 3 inch group at 1000 yards.

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Administrator May 9, 2011 at 10:58 am

I’m not sure what part of witnesses you don’t understand, and it is why it is there. It was a busy day at the range and everyone saw what Ben did. The world record is actually 1.5″ from what we can determine online. That is why it was stated that that this is not in world record territory. If we are able to get Ben out to Camp Perry and other competitions over the summer we are hoping to see him break the world record with this very rifle and ammunition. You will probably still stamp your feet and say you don’t believe it, but alas, eventually everything we all “know” about everything will be disproven and the world will move on without us all.

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Dennis May 9, 2011 at 1:08 pm

Really hate to take sides! However, a few years ago I was at Alliance NE, got talking to a man & wife. Their daughter who was practing on a “bagpipe” which bought me out in to the parking lot.. Got to talking and they were at a range ten miles east were they and others were shooting BMG 50 cal. It seems that their daughter put 5 rounds in an eight inch circle at one grand. So if your friend had a group at 6, he is just as good as a girl..

So I went the next day and watched, almost bought one, should have!

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Zack May 9, 2011 at 6:56 pm

Your friend is doing a nice job and truly has a claim to fame, what is yours besides traveling the world over going to Rifle factories ?

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Jon Fonda May 20, 2011 at 12:41 pm

Hey David Twitty – Sorry that was the best your friend could do, but you do realize that environmental conditions play just as important part of the shooting performance equation as does equipment and the shooter do in the mix. You simply cannot use as a benchmark or compare what your friend did with his own expensive equipment and under completely different conditions and location to what another shooter was able to do elsewhere. Ask David Tubbs about the variances he gets day to day with this own equipment on his own range. Temperature, humidity, wind, elevation, slope inclination.declination, time of day, time of year, and the rising of high pressure or the falling of low pressure weather fronts are some factors that always affect shooting outcomes. And come on, shooting with the most expensive equipment has never made some nimrod into a world class shooter, so why did you make a big deal out of that? Of course real shooting talent usually does rise to the top, as Annie Oakley proved to the chagrin of the macho men of her day when she outshot all comers. Obviously, the rest of us long-range shooters would be interested to hear how Ben Becker does in sanctioned controlled matches competing with his gear and rifle set-up.

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Joseph April 16, 2012 at 1:07 pm

Umm Current world record for 1k yards is around 1.5 inches. Set by a guy who own a range 1 1/2 hours from me. I’ve met the man cartridge is a wildcat called the .300 hulk. That group size is very attainable. I know this because I have done it once and seen it done on numerous occasions. some examples..
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1229032 thats with a .50 at .1 ish moa

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Oldtomcat May 15, 2012 at 4:50 am

I believe that he did. Some people who love to shoot. Have the most expencive Rifle,Great scope. Custom bullet’s. Realy should take up Fishing I have never Been a Super Spactaculer shot,as far as I am concerned. How ever I did Belong to A small bore Team, and tought small bore rifle & Pistol when I was in the US Army. That is where I formed my opinion about shooters. Also I shot The old and ever reliable M1 out to 500 yds. with Iron sights no bench rest. I would not have wanted to be a Rabit at 500 yds with My old service M1. Like I said. I have found that some people can shoot a Life time and can not hit a Bull in the Ass with a Bass fiddle. I first used that line in 1956 while telling a Sargent that wanted too be on our team in the worst way. Nice guy just could not bring his shots where they needed to be. I personaly can put 3 rounds in one whole even today. And by the way the cost of the gun any more is not important. at all.I have a ery expencive .22 cal Anshuts. and stevens 413 and a brand new Savage 22 thumb hole Stock. on whitch I placed a Simmonds 44 Mag I think it was a 3-10 but I could be of on that power. At 50 yds bench rest using a bipod the first day that Savage at the Kenmore Range out of Kenmore Wa. Out of six Targets three of the targets were in the same whole the outher three were close but that does not count. Now that I have said this I suppose that you will not believe me either. Also Mr. Twitty how about this I am not the shot that this guy is But If you have doughts about me how would you like too hold a Target for me? At 1000 yds. That is if I can use my JK Cloward 7MM or if that isn’t fair I also have a 308
Happy Shooting
Oldtomcat Still shooting at 75

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Michael October 3, 2012 at 6:39 pm

+1! Get some!

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Tom February 13, 2014 at 6:41 pm

How do you feel about “winning 2nd place” isn’t that the same as the 1st place looser?

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dr sherrod May 9, 2011 at 12:07 pm

Maybe some people just do not understand how good some military snipers are. Not all of them have ever or will ever compete in competitions…sniping is more serious than cutting wads. As far as Hornady goes, that is all I will shoot. Just because someone has shot in competition all of their life doesn’t mean squat. Being national and international champion year after year would be an indication…and 25 power? Didn’t catch the friend’s name…was it McGoo?

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78m40a1 May 9, 2011 at 12:44 pm

just to Chime in, our simple M40a1 with a Redfield standard scope we were punching 3″ groups at 800yds at Camp Lejuene, 173gr JBT from the Armory in Quantico. we were taking of baseball hats on moving sillouettes and exploding Ritz crackers at 600. with todays technology it is absolutley possible

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HeadshotBy308 May 9, 2011 at 2:58 pm

Good Ol m40-a1 with the Redfield hold over and Kentucky windage. I remember that sweet thing slamming them out to 1,000 yards and more easy.

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Jimmy Cracks Corn October 2, 2011 at 9:24 pm

Headshotby308: How can you be posting if your busy humpin your neighbors 3 legged goat.?

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kboller May 9, 2011 at 1:25 pm

The Lead Sled takes a lot of variables out of the picture. It’s obviously a great rifle with great shooting ammo that the rifle really likes. I’m interested in seeing scores from a prone position and sling support only. Add in all the variables Camp Perry can throw at you and we’ll see how Ben does. I hope it’s good and that we’re in relay 1 & 2 on the same target at Viale Range. Come to the Bob Jones Memorial Shoot in June! Great practice and a good chance to “clear the air” early…

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kboller May 9, 2011 at 1:28 pm

Oops. Sorry, I meant the Bob Wright Memorial Long Range Championship.

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HoldHard May 10, 2011 at 9:31 am

Leave the LEAD SLED at home if you are going to Perry. As kboller mentioned, add in the variables at Camp Perry like the notorious “fish tail” wind, sling, prone position and the July heat…. it will be interesting to see where this gentleman places.

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David Willis May 9, 2011 at 1:30 pm

Folks with opinions, saying the groups in this article are IMPOSSIBLE, with such conviction aren’t likely to be shooters. I have a friend, shooting on a farm in Tampa area with customized rifles costing nowhere near the money required here, who I’ve witnessed shooting the ends of coke soda cans at 500yards (450 yards to be exact) and who shoots into a 5″ target at 800 yards on a regular basis. Having also witnessed Mr. C. N. shooting offhand into that soda can at the same 500 yards,, I will gladly refute those who say that shooting as described in this article is “impossible”. If Mr. C.N. isn’t enough, there’s another pard from West by God Virginia, Mr. D.C. , who you don’t want shooting at you with his 6.5mm rifle offhand at 1,000 yards, as a gallon sized water jug is not challenge at 1,000 yards for Mr. D.C. Neither of these two gentlemen shoot in official rifle competitions. But it’s good to be *Positive* that such shooting is impossible….

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Howie May 9, 2011 at 1:33 pm

Facts are facts… why would these boys be lieing Twitty ? They are a professional shooting group/company who gets to handle more iron then most of us dream to hold. I say Bravo to Ben’s groups ! Seems the good little .308win gets lost in all the .50BMG and .338Lapua hype these days. I handload my own “one holers” on a single stage press, and I personally adore the .300Win Mag for my long range shooting at my own private range on my back 40, that even has a “Billy Dixon” gong set up at 3200yds. It’s all about experience and trigger time sending rounds down range. Sure, my .300mag shoots flatter and has less drift with the heavier bullets then does the .308. But if I’m spending hours pulling the trigger in one given day… the little .308 gets the nod. Easier on my shoulder and wallet to boot if I’m sending 200-500, 190gr boattails down range on a beautiful misty morning ! (memories) My targets don’t stand a chance since they’re not moving or shooting back anymores ! And 12x is plenty. It’s more then I had on my service rig back when our lives counted on my abillity to make the shot. I even ring Billy with open sights now and then. There will always be naysayers and doubters… such is Life. By the way, my fav target these days are little green apples… at 800yds. Apple powder anybody ?… you betcha !! -JMH

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Jon Strife May 9, 2011 at 2:30 pm

I am a proud owner of a Tactical Rifles M40A5 .308 and I shoot 1/4 groups at 100yds all the time with 168 gold match. So I defiantly believe this article is accurate. The owner, Dave, is a very nice person and walked me through the whole process of the build. I am thourghly happy with my rifle and understand why the marines choose the M40 as their sniper workhorse.

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Jim Matters May 9, 2011 at 2:41 pm

A LONG tiome ago; like 1997 or so, I was running a 1,000 yard match at Camp Pen. The CG drove down to the range (Wilcox) and wanted to get off a few rounds, and we naturally accomodated him, being good guests. That man BORROWED a rifle (I think from Noma Zinsmaster) and proceeded to put 3 rounds in the black, no sighters.

Good shooters are good shooters.

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HeadshotBy308 May 9, 2011 at 2:41 pm

As a former Marine Recon Scout Sniper I grew up cutting my teeth head shooting small game with a 22. I have found that it is the shooter not the equipment. I know 3 inch groups can be done if ammo and conditions are right. But on the other hand I have purchased a 308cal. $300 Remington 700 hunting rifle from the pawn shop with iron sights, and mounted a $200 5×20 cheap scope. And out shot 3,000-5,000 dollar rifles at ranges from 600-1,000 yards with 5in to 8in groups. I don’t recall the barrel length 21in but not a 26in bull barrel. Rifles are to pricey today they are only as good as the operator, with a little trigger work, and consistant ammo you can get the job done. And fre floating barrels does help but it doesnt cost 3,000-5,000.

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Howie May 9, 2011 at 3:00 pm

Trigger time is #1… and learning what the wind does to placement, as the distance grows is the key to accuracy. Sure wish I had my “home-rolls” or performance like the Hornady rounds back in the late 60′s ! It would of been a different game for sure. Semper Fi !!

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rog May 9, 2011 at 10:30 pm

i can’t agree with you more. i shot a prairie dog in the 1in square white patch dead center at 398 yards and a irish setter that was harassing our cattle at 880 yards with a remington model 788 in .243 and a tasco 3×9 and speer 105 grain reloads. i hoot a remington 1958 model 740 semi auto in .280 remington with a swift 6 power scope for hunting. i shot my dear last year at 340 yds and two years at 575 yds off hand with factory 140 gr remington core locks. now if that doesn’t do it for you try a 1893 mauser made in berlin at 600 yds all in 6″ circle and at 800 yds 4 out of 5 in a 6 inch circle with open sights and factory ammo. last year i shot a prarie dog at 100 yds with a remington 511 scoremaster .22 cci 40gr velocitor with a 15 to 20 mile per hour wind through the left eye and out the right. with witnesses. my 527 cz in .223 shoots 3/8″ groups. my old 700 rem adl in .243 shoots 1/2 inch groups and my .300 wetherby(howa action) from walmart shoots 1/2 inch and my chinees norinco sks will ring the 575 yard gong at the local firing range every time with a 1 power red dot. i think the gong is 6 or 8 inches. the three rifles have identical burris 3×9 balistic plexes. or for that matter i can hit tub out of a clothes washer at 300 yards with my browning hi power with 115 gr hornady xtps. i could go on. but some people still can’t believe because they can’t do it. it’s a lot about the shooter and good quality equipment. i am a gunsmith and none of the firearms are modified except the sks and it is just made leagal to hunt with by adding a monti carlo stock, a five shot magazine and the tasco red dot(35 dollars at walmart.) he he he i also have a few robin hoods in my collection from my hoyt bow and gold tip arrows. i also have a video of me poping 12 guage shells in the primer at 50 yds with the rem scoremaster and at 30 yds with my ruger sp101 in .22 lr using the velocitor rounds from cci. most guns will out shoot their owners. by the way HeadshotBy308 and all you service men and women past and present thanks for your service. i appreciate you

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Lane Hartle May 9, 2011 at 2:42 pm

Just curious why the individual shooting the rifle at the Manatee Range in the picture above isn’t wearing shooting or safety glasses. In fact, he’s wearing them on his head. If he’s just posing for a photo and forgot to put them on, that’s one thing, but the photo does send the wrong message…

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Administrator May 9, 2011 at 2:45 pm

Yeah Ben was never required to wear them when he was shooting haajis in iraq and afghanistan who were hoping some day to blow up a burger king. It’s hard to always remember that you are punching paper these days with range rules. There isn’t a lot of back splatter at 1000 yards, and $3500 rifles rarely blow up in your face with factory ammo.

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Lane Hartle May 9, 2011 at 2:48 pm

Good point… Send a couple of haajis my way, be glad to help Ben take care of them…

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Lane Hartle May 9, 2011 at 2:43 pm

P.S. I want a rifle like his…. :)

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George May 9, 2011 at 2:56 pm

” This three inch group with Hornady Superformance Match was the best that came out that day at 1,000 yards” …Okay ..best of “how many groups did he shoot” and how many were 3 + inches? What were the wind conditions, and was he using a LEAD SLED rest? The .308 cartridge lacks room in its case for powder & bullet compared to a .300 Win. Mag. which has the case capacity to handle heavy high B.C. bullets to buck the wind. IMHO the .308 is the wrong cartridge for serious 1,000 yard “target” shooting unless the target is human. Shooting a bunch of groups and then picking out the best one to display is theatric’s at best. GBL

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Literate February 7, 2012 at 12:09 am

You obviously didn’t read the entire article…

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BulSprig May 9, 2011 at 3:02 pm

Looking forward to Ben’s shooting at Camp Perry. Too bad you can’t round up a few Marine Sniper, to make the event even more interesting. As for the doubting Thomas, to equate bench rest accuracy to combat accuracy shows ignorance
at it’s pinnacle. Try sending a round thru a 2″ hole 20′ away to hit the the bad guy 500 meters across town, in a 10mph crossing wind. Nothing against the bench shooters, but, there’s no comparison.

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George May 9, 2011 at 3:02 pm

I prefer the 6.5 caliber rifles for all my long range shooting thru 1,000 yards, at least when im not shooting a .45-90 Sharps with Peep sights prone from crossed sticks using home cast lead bullets and black powder. Fifteen shots for score at 1,000 yards score 139 out of possible 150. http://WWW.LongRangeBPCR.com

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Howie May 9, 2011 at 3:19 pm

Ha ! CHEERS to George ! I love my modern guns and whizbang performance of todays rounds… but there is nothing like ringing my “Billy Dixon” gong with an old Buf Gun ! CLANNNNGG !!!! ps~ our side wasn’t using 6.5′s back in the 60′s. So I’ve stuck with the .30 for many years. Love dualling with my 6.5 friends at the range.

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G Oliver May 9, 2011 at 4:54 pm

I myself Build & shoot everyday very fast precision rifles. To say you can take a factory shelf rifle & shoot the impossible tight groups is a TOTAL LIE! Factory barrels are mostly “ALL” BENT,Fat Chambers & mostly the WRONG TWIST rate to shoot 1000 yards. I don’t care if they are Fat or skinny. The 1st shot out of a Factory Rifle barrel is the BEST shot it will do. After that a bent barrel heating up has memory. That being the barrel is going to walk from heat back to where it was before it was bent… NO ARGUMENT on the REAL FACTS of BENT barrel steel heating and walking, just PURE FACTS! Anybody who disputes this is a total blundering idiot. Yes there are a very few factory barrels that will shot pretty good for awhile. That being a very short time before it just quits totally. NO you are NOT going to shoot 1/4 minute groups Long Range 3″s on any regular basis out to 1000 yards! Not saying a Blind Hog doesn’t find an acorn. But he is not going to get fat doing that! That means that rifle is NO WAY GOING TO REPEAT THAT FEAT OVER AGAIN! Show me that over & over and Then YOU may make such a tall statement. Furthermore I have Chronoed FACTORY ammo for several years. BOX AFTER BOX and found it to vary as much as 300 feet per second in a box of 20 rounds… What are you going to do with that? Tell me and the world it is going to shoot little bug holes even at close range… That is the biggest crock I have ever heard. Now add the bent barrel, fat chamber & varying factory ammo into the facts. You will not & cannot shoot 1/4 minute groups at 100 yards in say 5 or 10 shots period! So any such REPEATABILITY of a factory gun shooting LONG RANGE is just a TOTAL WISH on someones part who lives in a fantasy world. Why do Bench Rest Shooters BUY 10 barrels from the same lot, chamber them & shoot them & pick the BEST barrel out of the lot? If that set of barrels doess NOT have a SCREAMER or HUMMER BARREL, they buy another 10 barrels again & try for a much more accurate barrel? BECACUSE they know what it takes to WIN! So foolish type in the internet about some FLUKE GROUP is POSSIBLE, BUT NEVER REPEATABLE with any FACTORY GUN! Now about custom rifles being built in 308 Winchester… There are too many variables in the twist rates being used in 1000 yard shoots. That being a 1-10 twist barrel is at its best to 500 yards. 1-12 twist is at its best to 800 yards. 1-14 twist is for the most part used to 1000 yards. That is what PALMA MATCH SHOOTERS USE with up to 155 grain bullets, nothing heavier! I don’t see them shooting 3″ groups very often either. These guys spend thousands of dollars on their guns, shoot all the time & a sniper has never been given any rifle like these ever! UNCLES “SAMMY” is not going to do the such to drag around the country in all conditions ever! I know there are some really professional snipers out there who have spent a life long career shooting world class groups. There are all kinds of guys shooting today with modern equipment that can blow the socks off anything out to a mile! I know that as I have done that myself witnessed. But to shoot like that every shot is a fools dream! That rifle is way more than most people can afford to buy… ONLY the BEST, want the BEST & that has a price attached to it with shooting everyday with Hand Loaded Professional equipment! How many of the so called SNIPERS know what an ICC MACHINE IS? BTW, most shooters don’t even know for that fact what it is or what it is for… It is a Internal Concentric Comparator Machine that spins bullets on Tungsten carbide balls that tells you if the bullet is the BEST to shoot or floor sweepings some company sold for MATCH GRADE BULLETS! I see bullets from all companies being made today that would not make it to the 100 yard mark in a 1/4″ or less group! Remember BULLETS have NO BRAINS… They don’t know where they came from & where they are going! So all in all the FACTORY RIFLES HAVE NO CHANCE IN HELL TO COMPETE like some may wish! Custom Built Rifles Can and do compete real well for what they were designed for. Although I see companies out there building “JUNK” with tall claims of accuracy, stealing customers money everyday! NOT poking peoples eyes here, just telling the REAL TRUTH about RIFLES being built with REAL PRECISION ACCURACY… Didn’t go further in this about Rifle ACCURACY & SHOOTING LONG RANGE. WHY? Because I know this is a TOTAL FLUKE with the EQUIPMENT on this rifle to be able to do it again! BS somebody else who may not be so far advanced in BUILDING & SHOOTING LONG RANGE RIFLES! Get to 5400fps accurately & come talk to me… Otherwise I am NOT LISTENING to TALL CLAIMS of 1/4 minute group at 1000 yards with such a sub grade rifle to start with! LMAO

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Howie May 9, 2011 at 9:49 pm

Could you imagine a 220gr boattail at 5400fps from a standard H&H mag case ?!!! I’ve been looking for that magic substance to do that for 50yrs ! Wish it was doable…

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Bert May 10, 2011 at 1:13 pm

I sure wish I knew it all like some people! Just love their “true knowledge” when someone can do something they can’t and they try to tell the world “it’s impossible” because I can’t do that. I shoot better than most, but not as good as some and like to hear of other shooters that do better than me because that gives me something to shoot at.OH YEA, DOESN’T USING THE CAPS LOCK JUST MAKE YOU LOOK LIKE YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT?

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Jerry January 22, 2012 at 11:51 am

I bought a remington 700 police special, mounted a leupold vx3 on it, used federal gold match 168 and shot a 2 inch group at 500 yards, so don’t say its not possible without spending tons of money…

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Glenn Graham May 9, 2011 at 5:05 pm

Administrator, the following paragraph doesn’t make sense.

At 500 yards, one and quarter inch would be exactly ¼ MOA. Don’t forget, Tactical Rifles guarantees a ½ MOA, not ¼, but Ben’s groups of roughly 1.5 inches were well in the tolerances of ¼ MOA. ½ MOA would be 2.5 inches.

You say that ¼ minute of angle at 500 yards is exactly one and [a] quarter inch and that Ben shot one and a half inches which is well within tolerance. Not if a person thinks it’s your erroneous statement that ¼ minute is smaller at one and [a] quarter inch. You should have said that it’s 2 ½ inches at 500 yards, as you did in an earlier paragraph. Someone is halving things once too often. You’ll confuse people who don’t know the difference.

Thanks for the fun article. Also I’d sent the same comment as Lane about no safety glasses, but to GunsAmerica. They informed me that they didn’t write the article.

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Administrator May 9, 2011 at 5:43 pm

One minute at 500 yards is roughly 5″. 1/4 of that is 1.25″. I don’t feel the math is hard.

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TheGhostofSimoHayha December 9, 2013 at 9:49 pm

I like this video about Tactical Rifles.Net’s workmanship…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRw1i6WTz2Y

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Idrankthekoolaid December 26, 2013 at 1:05 pm

Great video on the pride and craftsmanship going into these custom builds! Pretty much sums up my experience with them.

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Will Hux May 9, 2011 at 6:18 pm

It looked like he had a good day on the range and was motivated about it. I’m happy for him. Lets hope he makes it to Perry or to any Regional or State Championship and continues competitive shooting because the sport can always use more good shooters. However, if I might offer that in our sport we like to shoot all the way back with iron sights. We hold the rifles ourselves and use a sling on our arms and wear 1-2 sweat shirts under a leather or heavy cordura nylon shooting jacket. We shoot 3 position 200,300, and 600 yards across-the-course in the National Match Course and Mid-Range and Long Range matches are done Iron sight and Any sight ( you can bring your scope those matches). I’m getting older and I like my scopes now too. I still shoot both ways. Don’t get discouraged. Keep shooting. My only suggestion…….you’re only enjoying half of the sport if you are not hand loading. Get into the reloading part of this great sport and REALLY see what your rifles can do with custom made ammo!
Semper Fi & De Oppresso Liber

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S Gregory May 9, 2011 at 6:27 pm

This article and the posts talk a lot about barrel quality and manufacturing techniques. What about barrel maintenance? Did Ben ‘break in the barrel’ as some recommend? Did he clean it between groups? Or did he just shoot away? I’m really wondering about breaking in barrels? Is it real, or a real waste of time based on supersition?

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Administrator May 9, 2011 at 6:42 pm

We counted on Tactical Rifles breaking in the barrel. Since they knew it was a test gun we assumed they would shoot it quite a lot. Ben didn’t have time that day.

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Howie May 9, 2011 at 7:56 pm

Stretched brass, blown primer pockets, shot out barrels & 100,000′s of rounds sent down range… my favorite tip for accurate barrels after “getting a good one”… ? My old *Foul Out* cleaning system on a regular routine. I can see as my excact, precise hand rolls/barrels/groups start opening up, and start slowing down through my skyscreens… and to my Foul Out station they go. It’s like The hand of GOD just put new rifflings in my barrel… up to a certain point. I’ve seen it mentioned a couple of times in here, and it’s true… NOTHING compares to time pulling the trigger and sending rounds downrange and wittnessing the results for your self. Thousands and thousands of times… learning your gear and receipies as well as your self. It’s a Science… and not even the best whizbang gear is going to punch you tiny holes (or apples or steel gongs for that matter) at long distance until you learn it. The varibles turn me on, and make long hits damned near orgasmic ! LOL Alot like nailing that dime sized Par3 at 240yds in one ! Oh yeah !! And there is “luck” to be delt with as well to the tiny groups at range, outside in a changing breeze/wind. Is why I prefer the clang of a distant steel gong then chasing them danged tiny paper holes ! This post has made me want to shoot some more today. CHEERS

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Howie May 9, 2011 at 11:10 pm

Par 3, dime sized Green in one is what I ment to type. No holes in one… yet. LOL Why that would be like a 3200yd hit on an apple.. to me ! It’ll happen.

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Michael May 9, 2011 at 7:27 pm

Mr. G. Oliver,

Well said. I’ve been building and shooting long range, precision rifles for over 35 years. Accuracy at this level with factory ammo and a varmint weight rifle is certainly a notable event, but most likely a fluke. I’m afraid I’ve witnessed too many, truely accurate rifles, with too many talented trigger pullers, to believe anything else. I guess anything is possible, but whether or not they are possible twice tells the true story.
submoax

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Administrator May 9, 2011 at 8:03 pm

No offense, but I guess you didn’t read the Teludyne article that Ben shot several months ago, also at Manatee Range. Go search Teludyne on the blog. It could just be that you thought you were doing something productive for 35 years, and you thought you were a good shooter, but negative on both counts.

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Seekers May 9, 2011 at 7:50 pm

@G Oliver
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool
Than to speak and remove all doubt

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Rockz May 9, 2011 at 8:22 pm

Great shooting.
I am a member of Manatee Gun Club and would like to go shooting with Ben and the guys sometime.
Ben, please let me know when you guys are going out there again.
I’d like to see the rifles in action
I’m sorry I missed you all during that shoot.

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Administrator May 9, 2011 at 8:37 pm

We were supposed to be going this weekend but Barrett didn’t send the guns yet.

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Davey Ditzerq May 9, 2011 at 8:26 pm

I see shooters putting 6PPCs into 1/2 – 3/4 inch at 300 yards every month at our hog match so I have no doubt about the report on Tactical Rifles M-40 and Ben’s fantastic shooting. I even have a blueprinted Rem 700 with varmint contour Hart bbl in 308 that is a 1/2 minute rifle – that is five 5-shot groups at 100 yards to one half inch standard; and I’m just an amateur trigger puller. I can’t do that well at 300. Can’t read conditions that well, but I bet Ben could easily get 1.5″ at 300 with this rifle and my handloads.

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JC May 9, 2011 at 9:43 pm

I’m sorry, but I have to state that many of the comments posted thus far by all the ‘naysayers’ in the group sound quite similar to a bunch of virgins on prom night bickering about the benefits or downfalls of sex, without having ever experienced it for themselves. Well ladies, I’ve experienced it, and it IS as good as stated!!! I too have been able to shoot sub .50moa groups (quite frequently) out to 1000yds with my Tactical Rifles M40. Although I will admit Ben’s groups are better than mine, I have no doubt that he was able to shoot these groups with the rifle and ammo stated. I also have no doubt that he’ll be able to repeat this performance in the future. Until you can actually experience the real deal (shooting a custom built rifle from the fine folks @ Tactical Rifles), you really have no idea of what is and isn’t possible with this firearm. Enough of these “he said, she said” or “this one time, at band camp” comments. It’s time to man up. If you don’t have a rifle from TR or you’ve never had the pleasure of firing a custom built rifle from TR you really shouldn’t have too much to say since, after all, you really are just another virgin on prom night.

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gerald January 3, 2012 at 6:58 pm

hey jc…you sound like a guy from a papermill…..(which is a good thing)…keep shooting…

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JJ May 9, 2011 at 9:51 pm

I love sitting back and reading all of the posts from arm chair snipers, and comp shooters. The 308 is one of the most accurate cartridges made, plus the military, and just about every law enforcement agency on the planet has done extensive testing with it. The only downfall to the sniper style rifle and shooting any kind of match, unless everyone is shooting the same kind of equipment, but I’m assuming there going to shoot against standard 1000yrd equipment, 17lb light rifle or even the unlimited class 50lb or heavier. I can see someone doing this, having done it myself, and even beating them once and awhile, but there not going to do it as consistently as the all out bench guns. As far as shooting factory ammo and achieving this, Hornady has alot more money to put in there reloading equipment than any one of us, and the real benefit to reloading is getting your brass headspaced to your rifle, and the finding just the right sweet spot of powder and bullet combo. Today’s technology and all we know about rifles, barrels, and chambers a world class gunsmith can build a rifle chamber g it for what ever kind of ammo, or cartridge combo you want to shoot in it. As far as skill goes my son shot a 4.5in group at 600yrds the very first long rang match he shot in, alot of people will say big deal but it was, he was 7 and never fired the gun before that day, it was a custom action 6-47Lupua and a friend talked me into letting him do it. Sorry for my rant I got aggravated by some of the other posts, I know it doesn’t do any good to tell some people because they already have everything figured out and the rest of us are just floating in space. Thanks

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Lloyd Myers May 10, 2011 at 8:03 pm

BTW Army and marines all going to 300 win mag for the desert. 308 unless properly handloaded may not be supersonic at 1k 1200fps. Thats handgun vel. And no one can dispute that. Its cold hard fact. When mmu shooting teams shot m14s in comp they where 1k guns built for 1k only with long leads long bullets and more powder Gas systems where tuned accordingly. They where called Critchfield guns. But that dosnt mean you cant hit with 308 at 1k even if the bullet is tumbleing.

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Lloyd Myers May 9, 2011 at 10:08 pm

The group is Possible. And great shooting. But how where you able to get the zero with so little time? My God if that where on a 1k score target it would be a world record. With all the mirage and light refraction at 1k with 12x no doubt thats truly increadible. The black on that target is 1min dia aiming point at 1k with 12x WOW

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Donald Reynolds May 9, 2011 at 10:20 pm

I really like these articles and appreciate the fact someone is interested in sharing knowledge of a product that will perform. There are many ways to achieve and this is a great test of human ingenuity and skill thanks for sharing..Would hope that many have the chance to continue this effort and pass this experience to the next Ben of future generations who will enjoy riflery as I do…God bless. Donald/Atlanta.

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Sam Simpson May 9, 2011 at 10:20 pm

Back in my younger days I could do 1″ at 500 yards with my Win. Mdl. 70 300 Win. mag. all day long. Never tried any longer, wished I had now just for kicks.

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bassin93 May 10, 2011 at 12:46 am

Sam, so you wished you would have done it for like a day and a half?

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VNVet May 9, 2011 at 10:48 pm

My head hurts. lol

Just wondering if G.O. would consider my 40XBT from Rem’s custom shop to be a “factory rig” ? Point being, as for factory loads, I too have found Hornady is at the apex compared to Fed., Win. & B.H. (B.H. is 2nd to Horn. in my rifle) As for what I make my 40X one hole with shot after shot are my own 155′s and 168 SMK. It is the most accurate “factory rifle” I own, my others are builds costing seriously more but not that much more accurate.

Just my2

Keep it up kid.

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JJ May 9, 2011 at 11:26 pm

If you go to TR website they have a price sheet for using your rifle action, and just so you know a 40x isn’t a production rifle. They are some of the best target guns money can buy, and for a new centerfire 40x your looking at $3,000 or more. You can get used ones alot cheaper. I have a Hart built 40xbr in 6ppc that I’m building long range target rifle for my son. If you do have them build one for you I would suggest a different round than 308win, don’t get me wrong I love a good 308 but some of these newer rounds are more accurate and more efficient, the 6-47 or 6.5-47Lupua are far more accurate with alot less recoil. The ballistic coef of the 108gr 6mm, and the 140-142gr 6.5mm can’t be beat by the 30cal.

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Howie May 10, 2011 at 12:02 am

JJ… I’d still prefer a 190gr boattail at 3180fps or 220gr matchking at 2960fps being pushed from my old .300Win Mag then the lighter 6.5′s at extreme distance. Much more “whack” on target. But then I asume you’re only cutting paper, and for that the 6.5′s are indeed good. I see them daily at my backyard range. One thing you don’t have to mess with if you “roll your own” is that belted case I deal with. It took many years to learn how to headspace off the old 300′s belt instead of it’s shoulder for maximum consistency, and then the switch to Hart barrels after decades of handloads before I settled into less the .5 moa at 100yds with it. Plus I was trained to kill Viet Kong back in the 60′s with the dear little .308. My threesome consisted of two shooters and a spotter. Spotter would count down from 5 outloud and two shots were heard as one. Don’t know if they still use this tecnique… as I’ve been out of the loop for decades. Some of the kill shots and distances were unbelievable, to say the least. The little .308 will always hold a special place in my heart. And as I stated earlier… it would of been a dif game if I was armed with todays ammo and tec back in the jungle clearings we’d set up in. Semper Fi !

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G. Michael Craig May 9, 2011 at 11:29 pm

Aw hell! All this talk about punching holes in paper at long distances under controlled conditions is boring. Anybody can do that with the right equipment and a little practice. On the other hand, if you want to talk about some serious 1/4″ moa shooting under true to life unpredictable field conditions, try making head shots on bobbing and weaving squirrels with a .22 rifle at distances out to 75 yards. I used a Browning T-Bolt, with the factory peep sight, feeding Remington High Velocity. I filed and polished the sear down to about 2 ounces pull weight on the trigger. If my mind said shoot, and my finger was anywhere near the trigger, a 40 gr. solid was heading for squirrel brains. With that gun, I wish to humbly report that I became the greatest squirrel hunter of all time. My best morning was 12 squirrels by 8:30, all head shot, with 8 of them coming out of the same big hickory within 3 minutes, requiring a reloading of the 5 round clip. Lets see you hotshot prima donna bench resters top that!

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Scrapiron May 9, 2011 at 11:29 pm

I wouldn’t ever call a guy a Liar unless I could prove it. But I ask that all consider these Boys are in the business of selling iron. They are good at it too. You wouldn’t believe how easy it is to make so many people line up to buy your gigett when someone prints articles like this. If I were a betting man I believe I could get a fair ammount of good fellows with more green & zeal than Red Neck Common Sense to purchase a rig costing more than it’s worth. All just because they read about it and it looked like something from the military channel. I too have fallen into this abyss having laid it on the line for a sweet promise of being able to reach out there. But with all that being said know this. I don’t believe anything I hear only half of what I see. So you would have to show me this TWICE! So when you want to come up here to Oklahoma and try that let me know. I wanna buy the bullets across the counter here and see this with BOTH EYES!

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Administrator May 10, 2011 at 2:09 pm

Dave from Tactical Rifles said that if you are a serious customer to invite you down and see for yourself, and both he and Ben will show you as many times as you like, but you have to bring your checkbook. To me you sound like one of those aforementioned vacillating wannabes.

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G Oliver May 10, 2011 at 6:21 am

Not going to beat a dead horse here… TOO much BS in the ACCURACY ARENA! 308 Winchester is an OLD SCHOOL CARTRIDGE being exploited to something it can never be in GROUP SIZE REPEATABLE at 1000 yards. Not saying YOU cannot hit a target at 1000 yards with it. Just it is NOT CAPABLE of 3″ Groups REPEATABLE. For GODS SAKE it has to be launched 419 feet in the air to hit 1000 yards. WHO is BSing who in this matter? YOU can read the wind up there & back down every time? Temp. change, light shifting with a damned 12 power scope. No you cannot. For the people who think a 40X is a factory shelf gun and cheap DREAM ON! Now you want to challenge a 7mm STW doing 4000 fps with a 140 gr. BULLET at 1000 yards for group size with a 308 winchester? Go back to bed! No need to discuss how the rifle was built and how it is being done for over 20 years! Lets talk about rotation top spin on a 30 caliber bullet and see if you really understand that? Heavy bullet theory “BUCKING” the WIND? BS at its best! Velocity is energy regardless what you want to talk about. Heavy bullets don’t buck the wind… They just drift with it at slow velocities. Hell why does a 1874 Sharps shoot so far? Only it is very slow and drifts like a big dog. No it is not going to shoot any 3″ group out to 1000 yards ether. But it will hit a legitimate size gong at 1000 yards easy… Like I said NOT a 3″ GROUP REPEATABLE regardless of any rest. WHY? WIND always there changing, just like the light and other conditions. ENERGY DOWN RANGE 308 at 1000 yards? Quit fooling yourself compared to WHAT? This could go on forever with the IDIOT FACTOR in this article! Not wasting anymore of my time with such BS!

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Dennis M May 10, 2011 at 8:03 am

OK, what about the M1A modified? When I was in Nam in 66-67 Carlos Hatcok was kicking butt with a .50 cal and Unertl scope.
Many differences of opinions here. My feeling is whatever works for you. I had a Savage sniper rifle and it was Heavy with a bipod. I woul like to get back to shooting long distance again but very hard to find a 800+ yard range in NJ without travelling so far. Are there any in Delaware? Thanks, Semper fi

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Howie May 10, 2011 at 12:26 pm

Oliver, you seem to have alot of info and #’s in that head of yours, which is good… but do you shoot a few hundred rounds a week or more ? Ever drop the trigger across a 300yd rice paddy at something armed and wanting to kill you ? x 1000 times ? And then 40+yrs later, seeing all those shots that hit the enemy in your head each time you clean your “target” rifle ? Ever face the decision of killing a young man with your hands and rusted Ka Bar just to save that extra round and not give up your teams cover ? Sorry about all that, but some of us old timers are armed with lots more then just #’s. Long distance shooting is much more then cutting paper for tiny groups to me. And as you said, at any given moment the hold you just held to put one through Charlie’s ear won’t do the same again ’cause the breeze just picked up downrange between you and him, and now it’s time to send a curve ball at his buddy. I think you said you make custom high speed guns… so what is your idea of a good long distance extermination device ? Do you sale your guns to the public ? Or are you just a “hater” and are stirring the pot in here so to speak ? Do you handload ? The 7mm STW is a great round, but I doubt you’re getting a true 4,000fps with a 140gr bullet, unless it’s bullet is made of polymer. I used to mess around with 110gr .30′s handloaded for my old .300Win Mag just so’s I could be past the magical 4000fps. But they sucked at distance, and I needed a dif barrel to stablize the little buggers and passed on that, prefering the heavy bullets retained energy and stable flight much more. Your anger in your words leaves me chuckling as I try to figure out what motivates you. A shooter or a BS’er armed with book smarts and a degree ? CHEERS

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Howie May 10, 2011 at 2:32 pm

Plus, imagine making kill shots after being awake for 96+hrs from a combo of Uncle Sam requesting/ordering you to eat a handful of speed pills or even LSD to “stay alert” (f*ck!), and then the fear of being killed while you slept cause you knew whoever was on watch was exhausted too. They moved at night like shadows, and when dark fell my my ears were tuned into the critters and their warning crys and movements, and my hands held my favorite jungle gun… 12 gauge pump shotgun loaded with OO-Buck. My hands wore the finish off it from gripping it from stress. I feel lucky that I’m still here in fact. Lots of us didn’t get to return home. ‘Nuff said on that. So yeah, there’s alot to think about when you start throwing words around at a group of “shooters” you don’t know nothing about. I’m no better then the next, save for the Life changing experience I was handed, and have to stand infront of our Maker when that day comes, hoping that Our Countries decisions to force some of us to kill another in another man’s Country were the right ones to make. War sux !! But if it’s needed to protect our Freedom then so be it. I was a young kid in the 60′s and War, and Life and Death hardened me. It’s taken many years to lighten up. I guess it did scar me though ’cause I sure love shooting still to this day and handle my guns more then I do my Wife ! I feel the “need” to particapate in blogs like this… sorry if I offended anyone, but it’s food for my Soul and helps keep the nightmares away. Most days I see my targets as they are… a long distance gong or apple, a 100 yd paper sight in target and the like. It’s the days I see Charlie downrange in my backyard instead of said targets that leaves me thinking WTF ?!! LOL!! It’s all good. Keep sending metal downrange… it’s an art.

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Omar Little May 10, 2011 at 4:31 pm

Wow, Howie – Thanks for your service, but I’m thinking you need some help!

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Howie May 10, 2011 at 4:49 pm

LOL ! Got all the help I needed… but thanx. Charlie’s ghost is just a metaphor, so to speak. Was hard to let go, but did. Was just explaining what long shots mean to some of us. CHEERS

Woollybugger May 10, 2011 at 8:00 am

From your article -

“A total of three guns were shot that day at ranges of 100, 500 and 1000 yards, and one was also shot at 300 yards. Each of the targets you see here were mostly one of a kind, with varying ammo at the given distances.”

Three different guns and the targets shown are “one of a kind”. What did the rest of the targets look like? The aggregate would be interesting since know one else will have the luxury of cherry picking the best group from 3 different rifles in Mule Deer country.

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Administrator May 10, 2011 at 8:48 am

Some people are just unreal. I still don’t know what part of witnesses you don’t understand. What is to prevent someone like you from faking targets to begin with? It’s called witnesses.

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Woollybugger May 10, 2011 at 9:40 am

Admin -

Calling anyone who questions your statements STUPID will get you lots of support and I’m sure will sell lots of rifles. If you have witnesses bring them on. Did they sign your targets?

I didn’t even question what you said – I asked to see the aggregate targets. A typical gun review shows how well each type of ammo did – with velocity SD and the like in each rifle.

You said – “A total of three guns were shot that day at ranges of 100, 500 and 1000 yards, and one was also shot at 300 yards. Each of the targets you see here were mostly one of a kind, with varying ammo at the given distances.”

“Mostly one of a kind” sound like cherry picked targets. Show us the rest.

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Kenny Beck May 10, 2011 at 9:59 am

A great gun and a great shooter.Best of luck to Ben at camp Perry.Just as a note, back when my eyes and hands were better I shot my 1903A3 at 1000 and put them all on target.Lake City M2 Ball ammo.Iron sights. No great groups.I think actually seeing the target was a plus.It is the shooter, rather than the gun,when you have the combination of both you get phenominal results.

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Kevin Osborne May 10, 2011 at 11:11 am

Very nice job by both the shooter and the weapons system. Congrats.

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Dutch Joens May 10, 2011 at 11:14 am

I find it funny how people who poke holes in paper all day from benches and shooting mats throw the term SNIPER around like they are in the same class. Being a super Marksmen has only a small part to play in the Sniper world. These shots above were made under ideal conditions and I have no doubt they are legit. Tweeking the weapon to gain perfection does zero good if the shooter does not also tweek his mind and body to match the abilities of the weapon. Laying on concrete and taking each shot with little pressure is only the FIRST step….Now I am off to the 1000 yard range to spot for some one who will not get as good a group as this guy BUT I know he will make the same shots under extreme pressure and threat of injury or death…He IS a sniper.

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spooky May 11, 2011 at 1:08 pm

The guy in this story, Ben Becker, is a former US Army Sniper. I think it clearly states that in the text.

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Dave May 10, 2011 at 11:15 am

As the saying goes, Beware of an old man with an old gun, for he knows how to shoot it. A great shooter needs a great rifle with great loads.

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Howie May 10, 2011 at 12:34 pm

Amen to that one dave !

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Patrick J Daley May 10, 2011 at 12:46 pm

David, I think your friend should practice more. I think there is a huge difference between competion shooters and a trained military sniper. I fully believe Ben shot what you see. If you have a superb rifle withe superb ammo, a superb shooter can do what he did. As a military sniper who has seen combat, range shooting is easy as no one is shooting back! He probably had so little stress and was so relaxed that he just made it look easy and got rewarding groups. Good luck at camp perry Ben! Semper Fi!

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t bone May 10, 2011 at 2:15 pm

Now I have heard it all. A 7 year old is shooting 600 yards with a 4.5 ” group and had never shot a gun before! Bull!!! A seven year old can’t even get the stock to his shoulder and his eye to the scope. The kick alone would blow his shoulder out. My 6 year old can barley get the stock of a crossman bb gun to his shoulder. Time to stop reading this BS. I do appreciate many of the real shooters insite as I like to shoot long my self, it’s just hard to find a close spot in NJ, land of too many gun laws.

enjoy guys!

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Administrator May 10, 2011 at 3:35 pm

With a Lead Sled there is no appreciable kick.

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Dave May 10, 2011 at 3:51 pm

Remember that a U.S. Marine sniper usually has a spotter to do the math. A good spotter is invaluable. A compitition shooter usually does it all himself. And both build thier own rifles. I would not want to be on the bullseye end of either.

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xrey May 10, 2011 at 9:55 pm

Everyone has a story to tell. If they say Ben can shoot, then that’s their story. I believe there is truth in every story, and then there are stories, that’s all. People always compare what they know from what they read, saw or heard on the web or anywhere, but the truth is everyone is telling the truth or something. I’ll take what they say about Ben as that, what they said. As far as the military, there are bad days and good days like everyone else. Everyone can hit with a good rifle on any given day, and they can miss too. Let’s just give Ben his day and get the rifle we want. No one is really going to buy a rifle from what they read online, isn’t it? And if they do, maybe they can be good at it, not what the military did or whoever. Just ask Ivan Sidorenko with his Mosin-Nagant rifle.

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JJ May 11, 2011 at 1:25 am

I said shot that particular gun before, not that he hadn’t shot a gun before. Shooting a 17lb target rifle off of a rest isn’t really all that hard and whether you believe me or not doesn’t matter, I’m proud of him all the same, and there were about 25 world class targets shooters there to witness it.

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JJ May 11, 2011 at 1:30 am

I should have looked at where’re your from T-Bone, I haven’t met to many from your neck of the woods that could comprehend such an accomplishment. I forgot to include that there isn’t any recoil from the for mentioned gun.

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LRS May 11, 2011 at 3:24 am

I have been shooting and hunting since I was 6 (I am over 30 now). I was on a Scout/Sniper Team in the military for three years and am a designated marksman with my police department (by the way, never call a police tactical shooter a ‘Sniper’). I can honestly say that all the big game I have shot in the past 5 years have been over 600 yards. One of them was an antelope 760yds away running away from me with a 10mph cross wind. I only had to fire one shot. Yes, a good spotter is key to these shots, but I have never got the kind of groups shown here. I am not saying they are impossible, but with factory ammunition, it is pretty hard to believe. I love Hornady bullets, and use the Amax exclusively in my long range shots, but I use crazy-to-perfection handloads. With these same kind of handloads, I have made a one hole 3shot group (.224″diameter) with a factory .223 Savage f10 and a 5 shot group under .25 spread with a factory .223 Remington SPS tactical at 100yds. These amazing feats I can duplicate at 100yds all day long, but 1000yds is a completely different story. Even a well trained Sniper has a hard time reading the wind that good (even with wind socks). If there was absolutely no wind that day, it might be possible. With my issued M24 I was lucky to get a 9″ group at 1000m on a no wind day (11″ was the norm).

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rebelhorse May 11, 2011 at 4:07 am

You gotta love the BSers, for one Hathcock did his magic with a .308 not a .50 although he did make an amazing shot with the .50, point being if you give a BSer enough time, or as they say rope, to hang himself, sooner or later he will. The arms industry is making leaps and bounds in the art of long range shooting such as with the .408 Chey-Tac and no one has even mentioned that caliber while the military is considering changing to it from the .50 many of them already have. I did my share of shooting 1970 Viet Nam, but between, or I should say while awaiting our next target assignment orders, we would stand watch on the Hoh chi men trail, find a supply run being made, take the lead and tail engine blocks out with the .50 and then go to work on the moving targets with my M-40 somewhat like shooting ground squirrels today. The little .308 is capable of magical things if you are practiced and proficiant with it. It is amazing that no one here has mentioned being able to slow your heart rate, breathing excercises, working on your trigger finger etc. Shows me how many wanna be Snipers that took it serious about coming back alive, I thank any and all that gave it all for our freedom but being sucked into an argument about such things is a little on the wild side. An old man once told me in my early teens while Elk hunting, “walk a lot see alittle, walk a little see alot”, same thing kind applies with ones mind. Do more listening, sort out what works for you and the rest is just idle conversation and nothing to get worked up about. Thanks to all for listening, first time to comment although have read it lots.

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Lloyd Myers May 11, 2011 at 8:34 pm

Hathcock shot 3006 in mod 70 win the same type rifle he won wimbledon with (1k prone nats) The famous 50 long shot (duc pho hill) took 3 rounds with spotter before it hit metal handle bars on the bike, Then another 2 rds to hit the boy or the ak he was holding. The book doesnt tell you this, But hathcock would. Still a great man and great shot. There where other snipers that had over 250 conf kills. Chuck Mawhinny (canadian) last name spelling may be wrong sorry. Nobody even knows who he is. Stuff gets spun and the older you get the more you see this. Its just the nature of things Thats why people are sceptical Its only natural.

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G Oliver May 11, 2011 at 12:01 pm

Way too much BS here in the Fluke group shot at 1000 yards… BTW, All the Big Talk on the capabilities of the Gun Maker, You may need to take a lesson on marketing such a Magical Rifle & no doubt you may have a guy who can shoot… But to repeat that feat over & over is the biggest lie that ever was printed to this date. Hope you can sell a ton of these Magical Rifles, but I don’t think that is going to happen. There are more intelligent people shooting much better Rifles & Optics today than what you had on that rifle. Then you attack people who know better on here who really do shoot everyday! That Group is a Fluke and you know it! It cannot be repeated as you state… Get a real handle on absolute lie! You are going to fall on hard times when it is time to prove that group in the near future. I cannot wait for the future results to play out and see what the reason for such a failing to do again & again as stated. Say what you want about me, but I do know what it takes to build a serious accurate rifle & use the Best Glass money can buy… And YES I do shoot every rifle I build here before the customer gets it. Anybody who disputes 4000 fps with 140 grain bullet shooting a 7mm STW bring YOUR money! Some people understand twist rates to be able to do it over & over accurately. No 9, or 10 twist is ever going to get there. Besides the loading data is NOT published anywhere… I build the rifles & the loading data myself… Plenty of satisfied customers who own them will attest to that! So bring your money and we will see who is who here. BTW, 4000 fps makes 4975 foot pounds at the muzzle with a 140 grain bullet!

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SGT. George April 29, 2013 at 2:50 am

Loading data is published in books from the bullet manufactures. Almost every manufacturer publishes load data books either every year or every couple of years out to every 5 years. Hornady, Nosler, Barnes, Sierra etc. if you don’t believe me go on gun digest and search for bullet load books. Nosler just put a new one out this year, and it will be arriving at my house on Tuesday. Oh, and they hand load all of their ammo and shoot it to find the best load that works for that bullet, as do many of the other high quality bullet manufactures. So maybe Oliver you really have no idea what you are talking about. The 1 and 10 or 1 and 11 is the best twist for a .308 rifle as it stabilizes the bullet better than 1-12 or 1-14. I see in all of your posts you never mention what type, caliber, or the name of your company so maybe its all in your head, which by the way seems all mixed up. The shots are makable, and have been made more than once by snipers using pretty much the same rifle. If the .308 was no good then why has the military used it for decades in numerous different weapons? I personally shoot the .308 as my injuries prevent me from shooting larger calibers, and its a great cartridge in its zone, which is out to 1000 yards with 800 being the sweet spot for constant repeatable hits, but I have no problem believing in the right conditions 3-3.5″ groups can be accomplished all day. I think you like to hear yourself talk and like to start arguments, nothing more. Oliver you keep saying prove it, well you prove it as well.

Tell me all about your company and how many rifles you have sold over the last few years? Again you never once mentioned your companies name or what type of rifles you build you just keep ranting about all this BS, well I am positive you are full of BS! Dave is a great guy and builds great rifles, no where does he state accuracy over 100 yards. His rifles are full custom built from the ground up and the guarantee is 1/2 MOA at 100 yards, that’s it, which is completely accurate until you need a barrel change. You of course would know that since you build these great custom rifles, not! The .308 barrel is good for 4-6,000 rounds then its time for a new one unless you don’t mind diminished accuracy. Oh and for a 1000 yard shot 175gr will stabilize that far out. Have a nice day and if you can provide that info I will maybe listen to you but I doub it, as no where in that article does it state that any one will shootb3-3.5″ groups all,the time out of that rifle. Maybe you can’t read either. Oh and I spent 15 years in the Military before I was wounded in Iraq, which is why I shoot the .260, and .308 I can’t handle anything bigger and don’t need it as both rounds will go 1000 YDS plus if needed. Remember all of our Nbrothers and Sisters who have made the Ultimate Sacrifice for our Freedom. Go Army!

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G Oliver May 11, 2011 at 12:53 pm

HOWIE, No Hater here at all. Yes I do sell my rifles to the public. No I do not advertise my guns on any sites. I do not mass produce my guns. They are built one by one by me & ONLY me. Cannot hire good help today that will do what I demand in every gun… They always have a better faster way to destroy everything with their ideas. So, I do all the work myself. Yes I hand load everything for my rifles. I use the best equipment money can buy. That includes an ICC Machine to run the bullets over before they are loaded… How many of you guys own one or even know what it is? The loading data I build myself for these rifles with “Special” twist rates that are not factory used, so Yes these rifles will do everything I say they will do… Like I said before there is No Loading Data on the internet or loading manuals. Why, because the factory twist rates are not right from the get go. You would think they would use the proper twist rates, but they do not! That is why many cartridges come & go like a flash in the frying pan! There is a formula as to the RPM’s to stabilize given length bullets and Velocity. Not many know what that is. But just for the record, 243,000 RPM’s is the GREY AREA of almost unstable. The real perfect RPM is 240,000 RPM’s on the total TOP side of HIGH VELOCITY! Bullet length is critical and twist rate must match to send bullets to stabilized high velocity, with accuracy. This is why BARNES BULLETS do not shoot very well in most standard twist rate barrels on Factory Shelf Rifles. Not Picking a Fight here. The BULLETS are TOO LONG to Stabilize them for down range accuracy… What I am telling you is I have expended thousands of dollars proving my point & thousands upon thousands of bullets shot all over the country. Don’t need to talk about what I have shot over the years, but it has been a lot more than I care to talk about here. Yes I do expend many rounds a week here & shoot all over the place still. So NO I am NOT a HATER in the Shooting World or GUNS either. Just stating REAL HARD CORE FACTS PROVEN TIME & TIME AGAIN… I love to shoot extremely accurate rifles of extreme High Velocity. Time of flight is why… Less wind drift for one and down range energy as well. How much energy does it really take to kill something? Regardless of paper punching or Real Flesh, practice makes perfect!

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spooky May 11, 2011 at 1:07 pm

Oliver, didn’t you say you are a rifle maker? what is your company? If you are gonna talk all this noise about the rifle and shooter in this story, while touting your abilities as a shooter/riflemaker, let’s see some proof. Otherwise, I, and everyone else on this discussion, will continue to consider you the joke that you come across as. Until you show me your rifles and/or groupings, you will be called “Oliver the n00b-gina”

thank you

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Administrator May 11, 2011 at 9:09 pm

I love it you come on here hocking guns that are probably crap and badmouthing people who do this for real instead of pretend. Why are you wasting your time here when there are so many dollar stores you haven’t visited yet? Go make them rifles buster!

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JJ May 11, 2011 at 2:38 pm

Hey guys Carlos used a M70 30-06 marksmen rifle with a redfield scope, not a 308. Though he did use an M14 308, or 7.62-51mm, when first in country.

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JJ May 11, 2011 at 2:41 pm

I should have stated he used the M14 before he was in a sniper unit, because if you recall he was one of the first to help get a designated sniper battalion started.

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JJ May 11, 2011 at 3:05 pm

Hey Howie, thanks for input and I somewhat agree with the 30 calibers. I’m kind of leaning to the smaller bores because that is what the modern tech is going to, hey even the USMC went to the 6.5-47mm Lupua. I like these beltless cartridges because the powder burn rate is more efficient compared to the longer magnum cases, I guess the finally found a use for short and fat LOL. I to served as an Army sniper but it was short lived because I broke my back first tour out of country. Like any real sniper can tell you that the shooter is the less experienced of the sniper spotter team. The spotter calculates all of the readings of range, wind, temp, humidity, and so on. This is the first time I ever wrote in a post, I got tired of people putting down the guys, we should be thanking for testing these firearms. Everyone knows, and no one here claimed, your not going to shoot a 3in group at 1000yds everytime. Why argue about the obvious, they shot a great group. I don’t care what kind of conditions they had, it takes an excellent rifle to achieve. End of point

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G Oliver May 11, 2011 at 5:45 pm

Well since the administrator made big talk about what Professional People know to be facts… Let him tell us all about the TWIST rate in the rifle that shot that RECORD GROUP. What twist was the barrel? What was the Bullet WEIGHT? What was the REAL Velocity of the FACTORY AMMO? Now show us all what YOU know about that 308 shooting 1000 yards. I am listening & waiting on Your Reply… Your real quick to bash People who have spent a lifetime shooting & building very fast, accurate rifles. Now bring your answers to the table for all of us to see what you are made of.

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G Oliver May 12, 2011 at 12:00 am

G O PRECISION ACCURACY is the Registered Business Name & FFL DEALER NAME for Your Information MR> “ADMINISTRATOR”.
Been doing business in excess of 40 years, Class ! & Class III Dealer. Building & Shooting Very Fast Accurate Rifles. 100% Customer Satisfaction. That alone is a Hard thing to do. Dispute what I am saying about Velocity, Accuracy, Bullet Weights, Twist Rates, Quality of Barrels of Today. Of which I ONLY BUY Select Match Stainless Steel Barrels. Further more there are extensive tests of the barrels here before they even get chucked up in a lathe. Why waste time on a barrel that is not concentric inside, outside & straight? If you think for one moment all those great name barrels meet that test. You are seriously Wrong! I have sent barrels back to all the barrel makers, with problems… I did say “ALL” by the way. Bullets marked MATCH for instance are NOT all that GRADE either. ALL bullets I load go into an ICC MACHINE before they get loaded. Those that do not pass are boxed up & sent back to the maker… YES, they do take them back & replace them. Remember bullets have No Brains. They don’t know where they came from & where they are going. FACTORY ammo is never shot in any of my guns here. It has been proven that the is maybe 300 fps deviation in a 20 round box. Besides my rifles have special twist rates for the guns I build. So my loads are what these guns digest the best with quality loading procedures. Special Twist Rates are what are needed to build a very fast accurate rifle here. So you will Not find any data published, doing what I do. So don’t talk BIG like I don’t know what I am doing with High Velocity & Accuracy. What you don’t see doesn’t mean it isn’t being done everyday… Ignorance of the REAL FACTS in RIFLES & BULLET SCIENCE of today holds not water in the SHOOTING ARENA. If YOU think the Shooter is the Main Reason for an Outstanding group alone, you have no brains to talk. It takes Quality Trued Rifle Actions, Quality Stainless SELECT MATCH GRADE Barrels, Match Grade minimum chamber reamers with floating pilots & Floating Reamer Holder, Best Grade Trigger- “JEWELL” known around the world, Tactical Rifle Stock-If that is what you want & that would be a HS PRECISION VERTICAL GRIP, T-6 aluminum total skeleton set in Kevlar Fiberglass, Stainless Steel Bedding Properly applied to stock & action set into it. Takes a hands on Precision Gunsmith who has extensive machining ability to make the metal work perfect, Steel Trigger Guard with Hex Head Screws Torqued to spec into the action. Then will use Picatinny Steel Scope base set with 8-40 Torx Screws & epoxied to Receiver, Badger Rings torqued to spec., Rings now are line bored true round, Best Quality Optics- Nightforce NXS 5.5-22×56, 8-32×56, 12-42×56 or even Bench Rest Scope-8-32×65, 12-42×65-Customers choice here. Scope set Exactly Level in rings, Now it is time to clean the gun, Put Quality Hand Loaded Ammo in it and start shooting to break the barrel in while Zeroing the scope. 1 round clean for 50 rounds, after that shoot 3 round groups and clean. Never over heating the barrel for another 50 rounds. Now after the barrrel is properly broke in You can shoot the 5 shot groups. After 200 rounds you then can shoot 10 round groups with reliable accuracy every time. BTW, Velocity is NOT the real cause of eroded barrels… Poor case design cartridges with “SHORT NECKS” are the biggest cause shooting them to rapid & heating the Barrel up too much! Do you really want to know what they are? 22-284,6mm-284, 243 Win., 308 Win. these are the real culprits. Accuracy has nothing to do with the short neck though! There is NO Specific Cartridge that is more accurate than the other really. Some are easier to load or shoot from factory ammo than others. But really in the end result the GUNSMITH doing the Machine Work is the one who determines the Outcome of the Accuracy Potential of any Rifle! Poor Machine work always Ruins Accuracy of all guns… Now, how Educated is the Gunsmith building your rifle in the proper twist rate for your purpose with your intended bullet weight being shot? That is where You get what you want or just waste your hard earned money to start over1 I always set down with the customer and talk about what he wants in a rifle & its intended purpose… If his ideas are wrong with the bullet weights he wants to shoot I will show him the real reason he should do what I advise him to do at that point & Guarantee 100% the rifle will do what he is buying it for. If it fails to do what I said it will do, I fix that out of my pocket totally. Been doing that for many years & do NOT Repeat any Mistakes learned over the years. Much more Educated in the proper twist rates for what rifles and their intended purpose. Now if someone comes in here with what I call a “BRAIN FART” Idea of a Rifle he wants to build & I know it won’t work! I tell him right up front IT WILL NOT WORK! Reason Why & if he still insists on doing it, I tell him I won’t build that rifle for him! Take it somewhere else and let a CROOK STEAL YOUR MONEY! I don’t need to steal anybodies money and that is what it is. Because if I build something like that, I have a REAL Problem making it shoot for him, which cannot be done like I said from the start… NOT HAPPENING HERE! It Takes Years To Build A Reputation & Seconds to Ruin It… Like I said I shoot EVERY RIFLE I BUILD HERE out to 300 Yards to meet my satisfaction, before it leaves here.
So MR. ADMINISTRATOR, Here is the PROOF I am what I said I was, SO EAT YOUR HEART OUT!!!!

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Howie May 12, 2011 at 12:47 am

I knew you had alot going on in that head of yours Oliver ! Going to have to check you out. Any thoughts on my necked down .50BMG question I just posted ? I need to know… CHEERS

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gerald January 3, 2012 at 7:18 pm

I kinda thought he had too much information not to be mostly legit too…you had to read his post very very carefully …he never actually said that ben “couldnt” have shot those groups..just that it was unlikely using a stock barrel(and is an ordered barrel stock?)in any case I have enjoyed reading all the give and take one way and another..I started to invest some digits to start some fun of my own….such as( I just bought a rifle in 308 and took it to a friends 1000 yard range..1/2 moa really wasnt that hard to attain…of course I wasnt on a sand bag or anything like that..this was freehand….if I hadnt had the hiccups theres no telling how good it would have been…..and the russian ammo might have been less than perfect….but it was fun shooting some less than two inch groups that I could barely see with the naked eye..sorry mom..I wont say naked again unless I just have to…..a thousand yards is a long way….)

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Howie May 12, 2011 at 12:44 am

Everybody’s points are well taken here by me. And I give thanx and respect for the answers and thanx given back at me. As for the “hot shot famed headhunters” back in ‘Nam, that had the cameras following them everywhere claiming so many kills… we dirty plainjane Jarheads called ‘em Hollywoods. 95% of the boys with the most enemy kills were killed themselves by the enemy… gaurunteed. The camera toaters wouldn’t go where it was hot and fierce. I saw glory hunters who gained fame and celebrity status who never spent a full night in the hot zones becuase of said Hollywood crap… compared to those of us who spent weeks at a time smack dab in the middle of it. Still pisses me off !! ‘Nuf said, but something to really think about. Anyways… I had an old favorite Uncle who was a “wildcatter” back in the early 70′s. Always taking somebody else’s idea and either necking ‘em up or down. He even reamed his own barrels. I was fascinated with his creations, but stuck with my lil .308 and new found love (which I wish I had on Tour !) .300Win Mag, ’cause he could never get repeat downrange accuracy past 200-300yds with his ideas. I do know he was shooting a necked down .308 to 7mm long before Remington came out with their 7mm-08. And there was others as well. He passed before my knowledge of handloading came on and wish he was still here so’s I could run some ideas past him. Here’s one that always creeps up in my head… ***why not neck down the .50BMG to .26, .27 or .30cal ? Has it been done ? What’s it called ? I’d imagine it would have to be a “pure” solid bullet at that kind of velocity to keep the bullet’s shape. Being a .30 cal guy… I dream of launching a 220gr boattail at 4200+fps or even more. That 5,000fps threshold would really be a game changer ! Any comments and info much appreciated. (seems everything these days is getting rust on it, bodywise… ‘cept for my trigger finger ! Semper Fi !)

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JJ May 12, 2011 at 1:12 am

I understand what your argument is about less time in air means less time for elements to effect the bullet, all I’m saying is that most all shooters are going to the smaller cartridges because you have less recoil. Some of theses newer rounds are more efficient also, I mean look a 223 with heavy bullets held the 1000yrd world record for a short time. I don’t know why your getting so upset, the only reason the admin said anything was be wise you called them liars. I would have said allot more if it had been me. TR is a credible outfit, if you were up on competitive shooting you would have heard the name several times before. Mostly in the newer long range tactical shoots, but still they build a rifle that will compete with the best of them. This isn’t the first outfit that has done a write up of them either. I couldn’t tell for sure if some of your thread was directed at me or not. You sound like you build a fine rifle, and I’m sure you would take offense if someone told you your rifles weren’t capable of shooting a given group at given range. I grew up shooting benchrest, mostly 100 and 200 yrd aggs, until I got a little older, and the long range bug got in my blood. I know for a fact you can shoot a great group without using an 1-1/2oz Jewel trigger, but it takes alot of concentration and trigger control. It’s the same as saying you can’t shoot 1000 yrds without using a benchrest stock. You can do it with a tactical stock, but it takes an imense amount of. concentration and I don’t believe one could do it everytime. The new Hornady Superformance ammunition is top notch, I like the 178gr HPBT match bullets myself in 308win it has the highest ballistic coeficiency of any bullet in it’s class, though I load my own ammo, and Hornady match brass is top notch. There has been alot of match shooters shooting amazing groups with Federal factory match ammo loads for years, mostly high power shoots and so on, so why not Hornady.

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JJ May 12, 2011 at 1:34 am

As far as necking down the 50cal, just about every dia bullet has been wildcatted on that cartridge, even a 22-50cal. I don’t actually know who did it or why. I like to keep my barrels longer than a couple rounds. If you want something on that cartridge I wouldn’t go smaller than 40cal, or there about. The throat erosion would be heart breaking on the smaller cartridges. The 50cal makes an awesome gun, but contrary to everyones belief, it’s not all that accurate of a cartridge. The military’s most accurate round for it is the armor piercing incendiary round, even with that your talking 10pm groups at 1000yrds. The 50cal slap round is up there close to 5000fps, but doesn’t work well in bolt, or semiauto guns because of the short bullet. It’s a 30cal bullet made of depleated uranium or tungsten (or something like that, I can’t remember for sure right off hand). It was designed for armorpiercing in a M2, but they still have it listed for the Barrett for barrier and light armor penetration.

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Howie May 12, 2011 at 2:20 am

.50cal slap round eh JJ ? THANX !! I’ll have to check that out. I’ve noticed alot of single shot .50′s being built these days, and really liked one that was a Bulpup design with a 36″ barrel. Prices are outrageous though, and I don’t want to waste money on junk ! Held a Barrett .50cal semi-auto a couple of weeks ago here at an ABQ, NM gunshow… they wanted $9000. F*CK THAT ! Had no idea so many .50BMG variants/wildcats were out there… funny too since I’ve been looking and have my Uncle’s wildcatting blood pumping through me. Must of had my head in my ass. Going to go Google them now. Thanx for the shared info.

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Howie May 12, 2011 at 2:28 am

Plus I’ve had my eye on a new .338 Lapua build as well. Sad thing is… whatever I pay for a new gun I must also pay the same for something for my Wife. (how did that happen?!) It was cool 20yrs ago when she liked shooting… I’d buy two guns at one time !! One for me and one for me… CHEERS

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G Oliver May 12, 2011 at 3:34 am

Folks You are never going to push a heavy 30 caliber bullet 4000fps… The closest you can get is a 300 Remington Ultra Mag shooting a 180 gr. bullet 3660 fps. Been there done that already… Requires a 1-12 twist barrel which should have been put on the Factory Gun to Start with! Now for YOU FOLKS who want to go 5000fps… Been there and done that too! 220 Swift with a 50 grain grain Hornandy V Max. Shot extremely well & No it did not burn the barrel out ASAP! It did a pretty long life in the hunting fields and punching paper 300 plus yards with pin point accuracy. Twist Rate was 1-15″, I own the button to make the barrel. Matter of fact when I put the gun on the bench with the Chrono turned on, hand loads I put together with powder burning rate knowledge, Several Witnesses who said it couldn’t be done watch in disbelief… Rifle shot 5016, 5017 &5019 fps. Blew their mind too. I ONLY built 3 of those rifles as the 220 Swift is a Specialized Cartridge in “MY” mind. Semi Rimmed Cases can present a feeding problem if stacked in box magazine wrong… But I still shoot the 220 Swift today with a 1-14 twist barrel for hunting & have killed some FINE DEER here in South TEXAS LONG RANGE with 55 Grain “BONDED” BULLETS ONLY. 180 PLUS BC Class Bucks hanging on my wall! Proof is right here anytime you want to see them. And for those who may question those BUCKS. No they were NOT SHOT in a High Fence Ranch! All the Bucks I have shot were “ALL” shot in LOW FENCE Ranches, free roaming deer… Now for the Final HIGH VELOCITY RIFLE BUILT HERE! 5400fps is where I quit building FAST ACCURATE Rifles going that FAST… That was a Wildcat I built with a customers request who came here with the IDEA “HE” Wanted a Rifle that would shoot a MILE a SECOND, saying he wanted the rifle to shoot 5280 fps. I told him that was a Real Tall Order & there were very few Gunsmiths who could build such a Rifle here in the USA! He said he researched me shooting around the country & the ACCURACY MY RIFLES WERE DOING with EXTREME VELOCITY! I told him I could do it for him, but it was going to take some doing for sure. Well, it really wasn’t that hard. I knew what twist barrel I had to have and the bullet had to be a “SOLID”! So what it took was a Total Blue Printed 700 Short Action with a 1-16 twist barrel. The barrel was made to my specs. which had to have ONLY 3 Lands to cut 60% Fouling out & 60% Less Friction to begin with. Then the barrel had to be 30″ long to burn the powder properly to reach that velocity. Then I had a little wiggle room to make it go FASTER if it wanted to go there. Then came the bullet being made for the gun it was going to shoot. In a “SOLID” it had to be a mix of Copper & Zinc to make it the right hardness as Solid Copper or Brass Gets Way too Hard for Rifles most of the time! This bullet was a .224 diameter 39 Grain for length to stabilize properly going 5280fps. Gun was put in a really nice Laminated stock, Stainless Steel Bedding system turned on the lathe to carry the whole length of the Action Underside. Milled for the box magazine and trigger cut outs. Stock was cut out to fit this in it. Epoxied that in the stock. Rock Solid Platform. Now that had Stainless Steel Epoxy laid into it on top. Action put into epoxy & secured down with action screws to Torq spec. When hardened, action was removed and excess epoxy was removed. Then action was once again put back into the bedded stock & torqued to spec again. Now we are ready to see the Real Moment of truth… I loaded several rounds working up to my goal while shooting them across the Chrono… Went to 5400fps with the load and stopped there. The gun was driving TINY BUG EYES @ 300 yards… Now again there was a NIGHTFORCE BENCHREST Scope in the best rings and bases trued as well. This was Truely an expensive gun shooting Incredible Groups and EXTREME VELOCITY! I personally shot a coyote running about 500 yards running like he was standing still at that velocity. Crazy as it was that hyper velocity blew the bullet straight through him. But the Real Deal was the Velocity pushed blood out his Nose, Eyes, Ears and Butt! I guess You want to know what the Cartridge was? It was a 22-284 shooting a 39 grain Solid… Yes I have played with plenty of Wildcats in my time! So don’t even try to dispute my abilities on here. All of this has been witnessed and that is why I can & do very well building Rifles here with Extreme Velocity & Accuracy. No I do NOT Advertise as I am a 1 man Gunsmith doing what I do BEST! I build the Whole Deal with My Rifles, Guarantee My Work 100%, Give the Customer the Recipe for his Loading Data of the Rifle & Show them How To Shoot Their Rifles & Clean Them… I answer questions they may have and They Always Know I am Here for them in the Future. I don’t know any of my Customers who ONLY have 1 Rifle I made for them. They Always come back and want another Rifle in a Different Caliber I Build for them just like they want it… GOOD NIGHT ALL.

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JJ May 12, 2011 at 1:23 pm

Why build a rifle that’s going to burn out in, if your lucky, 1000 rnds (22-284). This thread has gotten way off base, everyone be good.

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Garry March 25, 2013 at 9:31 pm

Reading through this long stream of posts a couple of years after the original post.

My observation: Following a well intentioned article about a good session on the range the author has the hounds nippling at his heels…wrong caliber, wrong twist, wrong weight, wrong optics.

Suggest we take the story at face value and weigh its merits against what we see in the future (vice what we remember from the past)

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G Oliver May 13, 2011 at 12:21 am

Maybe YOU didn’t read what I said about throat erosion… 1000 rounds really doesn’t mean much for what it was intended for! I said short necks do burn throats badly. I really didn’t say how many rounds it took to burn them OUT… May shoot longer but that depends on the shooter over heating the barrel. Not really gotten OFF BASE! Had a few who really challenged my ABILITY BUILDING RIFLES & SHOOTING! Never going to Blow Smoke at me about LONG RANGE SHOOTING & WORLD RECORD GROUP with Factory AMMO! Like I said this BLOG was a FLUKE GROUP PERIOD! Why don’t you “ALL” who dispute what I said LOOK at the PALMA MATCH Shooters GROUPS… Most “ALL” of them shoot the 308 to 1000 yards with ONLY a 155 grain Bullet. Because that is all they can shoot for BULLET WEIGHT. Besides the Bullet Has to stay Super Sonic to hit the target at that distance… 30 Caliber Bullets have to have a special Twist Rate to shoot that far & stay super sonic regardless what some may Claim To FAME… Also Rotational Top Spin of 30 caliber bullets plays harder on them when they go sub sonic. Meaning they go where ever they want just like a top that slows down and wabbles off its intended path. I have yet to see any Tactical rifle with that required twist rate in 308 built for sniper work! Uncle “SAM” does not have rifles built with all the modern day goodies in a 308 Winchester Rifle… Most “ALL” of those rifles have a 1-10 twist rate to shoot heavier bullets or maybe a 1-11 &1/2 TWIST at best… Neither of those will ever print you a 3″ group at 1000 yards if hell froze over, with I don’t care who’s FACTORY ammo is being shot! Furthermore the SUPERFORMANCE AMMO has some issues with HIGH CHAMBER PRESSURES from lot to lot… Also the POWDER being used also is probably the real culprit… Go check it out for yourself on the web… I saw problems with that ammo right here in a 22-250… Customer brought here to find out what was up with the ammo in a Minimum Match chamber… Showed him the web pages with Hand Loaders with the same problems also. Told HIM to just Load His ammo with KNOWN powder we use here & Forget FACTORY AMMO if he wanted the BEST ACCURACY FROM HIS RIFLE round after round!

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JDO May 15, 2011 at 5:54 pm

I came here to read a great article about some amazing shooting! Not know-it-all Theoretical Internet shooters like Oliver and Twitty.

Keep in mind you are calling a former US Army Sniper, who put his life on the line a liar. You should be ashamed of yourselves even more so if you are veterans as well.

Why don’t you both tell us where you work and or who you represent so we can talk smack on you and your products and reputations as well. Until then STFU.

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Caleb May 17, 2011 at 2:43 pm

I just want to say that it’s a pleasure for me to be able to read all of your comments, and learn from them. I am a young guy, looking for a good gunsmithing program to invest my time and money in. Would any of you gentlemen have any suggestions? I live in SC, and would like to stay relatively in this area. Also, for the benefit of guys like me who are just breaching the subject, please make sure the information you post is accurate. I want to learn the right way, and not be inundated with false facts from guys who want to flex their muscles because they get pissed off at each other. Thanks for all of your time and info. Any suggestions????????

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Phillip Hall May 19, 2011 at 12:29 pm

If you live in Mid-Florida the Gun range is a short drive out on Florida State Road 64 a few miles passed the Bradenton Race Track and Manatee State Park, you would take Exit 220 on I-75 South, drive about 20 min. East. Yankee’s are welcomed.

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Administrator May 19, 2011 at 4:02 pm

I was out there this sunday Phillip, trying to test that new Rapid Z reticle from Zeiss. It works great but there was so much gusty inconsistent wind that I couldn’t get any specific results. I could hit the tire at 565 just using the reticle after zeroing at 100. Nice stuff. Hope to get back out there soon it is a really fantastic range and nice people. -ph@ga

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mudrake2 May 25, 2011 at 11:26 am

As a scientist, we are taught the difference between Accuracy and Precision. Why do the definitions used in the shooting world differ from those in the scientific world? The definition you use in the article for Accuracy is actually the one for Precision. Precision is the reproducibility or repeatability of a measurement. Accuracy is the degree of closeness of a measurement to the true value. So, a weapon is accurate if it hits the true point of aim if all non-weapon variables are removed. The weapon is precise if it can do it over and over again. An example of this is firing at the bullseye. If my three shot pattern is just .25″ the gun is precise. If the pattern is low and 2 inches to the right from my point of aim, the weapon’s set up is not accurate. I know this runs counter to the accepted “jargon” of shooting, but mixing definitions seems to confuse things.

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Administrator May 26, 2011 at 5:50 pm

because we don’t hang with eggheads lol

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shibbie February 23, 2014 at 3:22 pm

The above definitions are correct and apply to shooting as well as science. You don’t have to be an “egghead” to know that. Ironic that such a big point is made to define accuracy, only to have it be an incorrect definition! LOL

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ablitheringidiot May 30, 2011 at 11:36 am

You should be carful on how you respond to other peoples blogs….BTW hows the weather in Washington?

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Chicagogunsmith July 6, 2011 at 9:59 pm

Now, if only one could find a 1,000 yard range. None anywhere near to Chicago. The closest is 600 yards but requires a hefty yearly dues and is 4 hours away.

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Michael August 1, 2011 at 9:21 pm

I have a 1000 yard range not too far from my house. I need to utilize it! Very informative site! Thanks!

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HOG_dawg September 17, 2011 at 5:18 pm

To establish some credibility without sounding like a d-bag I’ll just say I have a HOG tooth around my neck. I agree Hornady makes a great ammunition. They changed the game for 30-30 fans and no one comes close to their 45-70s either. However, when it comes to .308 they are absolutely second place. Every shooter I know, myself included, gets tighter groups with Federal SK. I would challenge anyone to lay down with any 168gr Hornady (AMAX, BTHP, whatever) and I will lay down next to you with some (cheaper btw) Federal Gold Medal Match 168gr BTHPs and show you the error of your ways. That one fellow was right when he said that many of us don’t shoot in competitions. But you better believe we still shoot. We have to be prepared for the Zombie Apocalypse. lol

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Jack Tilton November 12, 2011 at 4:10 pm

You know guys I’ve been shooting for about 57 years, started with a Daisy BB gun. I of course graduated rapidly having been raised on a cattle ranch in Texas. I’ve shot a lot of game and a truck load of benchrest. I was an Army shooter starting in 1970. I have truly seen some remarkable marksmanship over the years. I know what I have shot as far as MOA is concerned and I’ve seen some incredible shooting over the years. I believe the claims because I’ve seen it done and done some myself. With the right equipment, right ammo, right conditions anything is possible. Sounds like we’ve got a few jealous shooters squaking. It’s easy to say someone can’t shoot like that so I suggest that if you don’t believe it put your money where your mouth is and I’ll guarantee there are a lot of shooters that will use you whiners and disbelievers to make a living from.

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beard January 31, 2014 at 11:51 pm

yes things are possible not douht these men can shoot.you always got people with more money than brains that says you cant because they cant with there expensive guns. i shoot very little but i do know my guns and how to use them.one shoot i killed a deer at 650 yard with browning 270 ato. with a tasco 3×12 scope. hell i never shoot the gun over 100 yards before that.

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Badmac February 9, 2012 at 1:31 am

Seal Team Six snipers usually stay low profile enough as not to respond on here. But I would like to see them shoot against the Marine Recon Scout Snipers.

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Jking March 6, 2012 at 1:22 pm

I’m not a Marine sniper, but if I can hit a moving man 540 yrds away with one shot with a 16.5″ barrel on a M4 with a RCO I’m sure 3″ at 1000 yrds can be done.

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baldwin March 7, 2012 at 2:31 am

“One minute at 500 yards is roughly 5″. 1/4 of that is 1.25″. I don’t feel the math is hard.”

And yet you go on to say that his 1.5″ group at 500 yards is in tolerance of 1/4moa (1.25″)??

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Jking March 9, 2012 at 9:18 pm

Last time i was on the range I went 10 for 10 on the 500 yard line with my M4 with a 12″ target. 10rds with in a foot. Not saying every shot hits a man in the chest at 500 yards with a M4. I’m just supporting the 3″ group at 1000. I think it could be done. I don’t think it could be done every time you went out, and my 10 shots was spread out over the 12″ i had about 4 that barley hit black. We also had a marksman with the mk12 hit a man in the Tbox at 850 yards which is also 5.56 with a 12X scope.

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Williereb May 10, 2012 at 3:43 am

Well for all you hot shooters out there… I once shot a flying and dodging swallow clean out of the air with a single BB and a sling shot. Was probably about 12 at the time, and felt terrible about it when it dropped about 15′ in front of me flopping on the ground. Which of you codger gyrines can top that? Enjoyed reading all the posts. Just not sure I’m ready to join the $3k rifle club, but can appreciate the expertise and effort required. Think I’ll go shoot my mini 14 with some crap ammo now… see if I can hit a junk school bus at 40 yards.

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Shifty May 21, 2012 at 7:46 pm

Can’t believe I am commenting on a year old article, but the discussion is apparently still active…

There are shooters that I am sure can do this, and there are rifles I am sure can do this. Putting them together on the same day seems to require a require shooting at a unicorn. It’s magic when it happens.

To all those that used their skills to survive, and make sure I survived…thank you. Nice shooting.
Shifty

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Administrator May 21, 2012 at 10:43 pm

This article actually still get a ton of reads and yes there are plenty of shooters that can shoot just well with a rested 3500 dollar rifle.

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Scott May 22, 2012 at 12:13 pm

The true skill is in reading the wind. I bet it took several attempts to get these impressive groups. Possible yes , probable NO. People just don’t understand that as the range increases, errors magnify at an alarming rate. They picked the right rifle, the right ammo on the right conditions. No doubt good ammo and good rifle….but, If you miss gauge your wind by 1mph at 500Y you will be off by 2″ , and at 1000Y you will be 10″ off. So if you know the difference between a 2.3 mph wind all the way to the target and a 2.6mph wind, yes you can do this. Nuff said.

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Sandy Daniels May 31, 2012 at 9:14 pm

I think this dicussion got way off as well. I own several rifles I bought in Pawn shops I don’t keep em if they don’t get MOA or less. My best buy was an O3A4. It took me several weeks of solid clean up to get all the copper fouling out of it then I firelapped it, recleaned it, and went out the next day with some match brass 54.5 gr of 4350 and 180 grain Match bullets my first group was slightly under 3/8 the following 5 shot groups all four of them came out to be inbetween 5/16 and a 1/4. My wifes ruger #1 in 06 does an inch with 165′s. My brothers savage bolt does MOA as well as my 45-70 and my latest pawnshop deal a .338 win mag built on a O3A3 action with a tapered medium
heavy bbl. I plan to use that this next year in our 1000 yard matches with the 285 grain Hornady match. At 100 to 300 yard benchrest games yes the equipment you have is the limiting factor if you are truely a benchrest shooter. At 600 to 1000 yards it’s the shooter thats limiting factors are seen and become obvious. Personally I think our Marine, Army, and Navy snipers are truly the best shooters in the world. If Hathcock hadn’t been burned so badly in Nam I think he would’ve set records that would still stand today. I know he was making 1200 to 1400 yard shots on VC. One 2400 yard shot with the 50 and the more years he shot the tighter his groups got. He also had MS screwing with his program as well for those who know the craft of the sniper Hathcock, Mahonney,Ward and a few other pioneers in the craft are commonly known. He did indeed use a 30-06 almost exclusivly throughout his combat career It wasn’t till long after he was home that the M40 became the standard. Some of those weapons shoot MOA some shoot much better than MOA it’s the luck of the draw. Just consider how few shooters can actually take advantage of that MOA capability at 1000 yards. Perfict trigger control, breathing correctly, shooting inbetween heartbeats, and so on are beyond most “experts” abilities. The American sniper is trained to do those things as a matter of course or he doesn’t make it through the school. anything under a 4″ group at 1000 is incredible luck as well as the mastery of the advanced shooters skills. Thats why they are rare and not terribly easy to duplicate. Otherwise they would be as common as 10″ groups. You can build the perfict rifle in the perfict caliber with the perfict ammo and the perfict scope ….. it won’t matter one whit if the wrong man is behind the weapon. I disagree with the fellow here who is giving his resume out here constantly in caps Many of the used weapons I have bought are MOA or sub MOA. See what a sniper can do with those weapons consistantly then make a semi intellegent judgement on what is and is not possible. He may well be a superior gunsmith but thats only a part of the whole effort. Just like being a superior shot is only a part of the sniper training roughly 1/4 to 1/3 of the snipers overall training.

Best of shooting to you all and God Bless
Semper Fi

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JTF June 9, 2012 at 2:49 pm

Great article . I know Tactical Rifles , along with A.I.,SAKO,Chandler and numerous others. They all have the capability and are pprecision rifles. What makes them accurate is all the parts combined with the rifle.
You could have used any paper puncher to be your test shooter. This is nothing but fun for a sniper to be able to shoot a rifle like this from a fully supported bench. I could teach almost anyone to take a rifle like that and punch incredible shots at those ranges.
Where this rifle shines is it’s ruggedness. I did not see this in the article. Take the rifle on a 2 day stalk in rough terrain. Let the sniper run the rifle through a regiman that sniper rifles go through day in and day out. Throw it in a bag. In a truck,and a trunk. Jump with it. Feed it to the sharks LOL
Then see how this rifle performs. I love this rifle but can’t afford it.
I am a sniper. Your test sniper did a great job but he didn’t really get to test that rifle.
I know Tactical Rifles are out there in service in some places. You should do volume 2 of this and loan it to a hunter or sniper for real field use.
What bullet did you use out to 1000. What barrel length?
Wait for it ……wait for it!!!!!…..here it comes.
THIS RIFLE WILL PERFORM INCREDIBLY IN THE FIELD NOT JUST ON THE RANGE as long as the ammo,optics,and shooter does their job.

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smart marty June 15, 2012 at 1:07 pm

no one I contacted at the range ever heard of it

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jtf June 18, 2012 at 9:47 pm

Wow everyone got a little off track. The evaluation of Tactical Rifles is spot on. They are very well made, will hold together and take a beating without weighing you down. They have even treaked a few ways the military hasn’t.
I do wish the former sniper would go back to using the skills he was taught to use. It doesn’t matter how many Army Sniper Courses you may have passed. Being a sniper is a constantly evolving art and a diminished skill. From what I have seen the shooter in this blog and several other blogs he is highlighted in is NOT an sniper any longer and shouldn’t dwell on that fact. Even the infantry level sniper course would not tolerate what I have seen here.
Now the rifle , thats a different story. In a snipers hands or an accomplished hunter or both. That rifle will hold solid and true time after time. I can safely say a skilled shooter with that rifle and ammo to match can hit 2 inch groups to 600. Time after time from prone supported by bypods or pak.

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Pitty920 July 15, 2012 at 5:40 am

***haha noooo! N e one with a match 308 worht more than $4500 please take your benchrest and test this ammo at 500 yards and you will soon see y i laugh. To think i even took the time and money to test this is laughable! I say 500 because i attempted @1000 and this was comical at best. The only groups i believe you shot would be the .5 @ 100 . No way no how, not his super performance, this ammo has gotten poor to very poor reviews In just about every magazine ive seen! Even with the best hand loads you can find this grouping is doubtful but plauable with your rifle although not repeatable, but superperformance what u get paid to say that. I saw the leading army sniper two man team, at that time the best in the world, shoot a 7″ group at 100 with 3 rounds and they were even surprised. Not saying they. Any beat that but it doesn’t happen all the time.
To the gent saying a lil girl shoot 8″ groups with a 50 so what that is lIke 450yds for a 308 the 50 cal makes sniping easy and until u push past 1500 and I u r full of it regardless.

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Pitty920 July 15, 2012 at 5:49 am

Not only is he shooting more accurate than the I’m guessing .45 Mia range rifle and don’t tell me it is .25 cause there is only a few guns that can and. It with a short as barrel either. Also the super rap oops I mean performance is not nearly capable of this it has been tested by several rifle magazines and it shoots less accurate than normal hornady match, and all these so called shooters who claim to do this in their sleep at the camp BS 5 to 6 hundred maybe! But that is a damn stretch. By the way I submitted this to several magazine editors and I will be eager to post their thoughts on the matter.

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Pitty920 July 15, 2012 at 5:51 am

MOA range rifle typo the only reason I say .45 is because it is likely a sub .5 which usually shoots no more accurat than .45

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rob August 3, 2012 at 7:43 am

I Hope I am not out of line here but Im in The Australian Army, I am happy with getting a group of 56mm 20 rounds at 600m with 5.56mm nato. Any shot under 70mm group is concidered better than average. The scopes we usew are 1.5x so there is not a great magnification to be able to do much better. there is no nice benches to shoot from just dirt wind heat double feeds and the odd gas stopage. Some times its a two way firing range so that adds to the mix as well. I have just bought a Savage BA10 308 and will have a Laupua scope fitted and a harris bipod. If I cant get a 20 round group down to 30mm Ill give up shooting. At the end of the day my targets run and shoot back.

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rob August 3, 2012 at 7:56 am

sorry leupold scope was meant.

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jtf August 5, 2012 at 10:57 pm

Even with the Savage you should ,in perfect range conditions and ammo, get at least MOA out to 600 YARDS.
Luckily you shouldn’t have to worry bout being a bullet catcher at the range but you never know.

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Custom August 8, 2012 at 11:42 pm

My custom rifle built buy Don fraley will honestly shoot the
Same whole in a 3 shot group. Using 168gr serria match projectiles
And personlal hand loads. I will take a video

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Michael October 3, 2012 at 8:09 pm

The article itself was interesting, the replies and rants were entertaining! Whiskey Tango Foxtrot! Some people have WAY TOO much time on their hands! Experts seem to sprout everywhere! Why is it so difficult to tip your hat to someone and say, Have at it! Bully for you! Until you see it for yourself (one way or the other) keep your mouth shut…. Maybe he had a good day, maybe he got lucky…. maybe he doubled up on Cheerios and oatmeal for breakfast and he was blessed with superhuman abilities for the day…. Who knows! There used to be a saying…. put up or shut up! My experience, no the Hornady Superperformance in NO WAY stacks up against my handloads in my rifle, so what? At any rate…. at a boy, Ben! Do it again, if nothing else, just to piss people off some more, or eat some crow! Either way, nice work!

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Mike October 30, 2012 at 1:04 pm

I can put 5 arrows at 100 yds in the 10 ring with a recurve bow. LOL guns and all the tools. Better yet lets go back to days of Honor where you confront your enemy with swords instead of cheap shots in the back. Bet half the 1000yd shooters cant even run a 6 minute mile

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Mike October 30, 2012 at 1:05 pm

LOL o yah i forgot try shooting me while running at 1000yds.

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Jack November 5, 2012 at 5:26 pm

I think the shot was very possible. I have been doing this for almost a year now and am obsessed with the perfect load. ( annealing, multiple weighing, micrometer, concentricity gauge, tip filing, etc.). My first time at 1000 was a 9 inch 20 shot group. Now I usually only have access to 600 yards. I shoot off a bi-pod and a shot bag under the rear of the stock. My average group is now almost .4 even. It takes a few .175, .19 .20′s to average .4. My rifle is a 20 lb., 700 rem, with a 30.5 ” Kieger, brake , 8×32 Burris , bell and Carlson, Cheek piece, The action is trued and the trigger has been worked over but is not replaced. It is a 300 RUM shooting 300 grn smk’s, 90 grn retumbo and chronnies at 2816 fps. That shot is very possible.

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mwinn February 26, 2013 at 6:41 pm

luv u guys lol

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john E boy March 11, 2013 at 2:21 pm

I’ve been a 1000 yard bench rest shooter for many years now. I shoot williamsport penn.
I don’t belive these claims . Not for one bit. And anyone who does i have a bridge to sell you.
I’m sure these rifles are accurate but to make these claims is just not right.
I belive this guy can shoot BUT not the groups they were talking with factory ammo. !!

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Tom T April 2, 2013 at 9:07 pm

For 45 years I have bought , borrowed and shot any weapon I can get my hands on . Own several different types of guns and bows , hunt with them all . I’ve, shot some totally unbelievable groups , made some extraordinary 1 shot kills , Then have had other people , some with little experience , use the same weapons and some of them out shoot me with my own weapon . My advise to the none believers is “go meet the boy , shoot against him and see for yourself ” otherwise don’t run him down , just brag on yourself and let it go at that . Get out there , shoot more , practice is the best way ,experiment , be safe have fun and learn

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Jay April 5, 2013 at 11:27 pm

I do not know why some really got bent out of shape on the accuracy. My last 3 rifles, used have shot 1/2″ moa or better first time out. Best was 0.060″ group, 5 shot, 223 with Win 45 gr varmint factory rounds at 100 yds, with Magnum Research bolt action. Last rifle was Marlin 17 hmr, and shoots 1/2″ groups easy at 100 yds with Hornady vmax 17 gr. I have waited 40 years to shoot this well, new ammo is much better, guns are good, good rest has also helped alot.

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check this out April 28, 2013 at 9:36 am

I know this web page offers quality dependent posts and extra stuff, is
there any other web site which offers these kinds of things in quality?

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Administrator April 28, 2013 at 10:28 am

Um, I wish there was but unfortunately we are in a period where the print mags have gone to whoring themselves to advertisers and the online sites are just snippets for google. Jeff Quinn at GunBlast.com is not a great writing but the substance is somewhat there, though vague at times lol. Thanks for your kind words. We are trying to be head and shoulders above the rest.

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mitch May 3, 2013 at 10:31 pm

i just read the whole blog from start to finish and was very entertained. my wife was less than happy with the attention I showed her though. I would like to thank Ben and the rest of you veterens for your service, I pray you all live rich and full lives. I’ve been shooting 308′s for over 10 years off the bench, have never shot past 600 yards though. My long range guns have always been 6br’s with 95gr M/k to 800 yards and the 107gr m/k at 1000. Currently awaiting my new 284 shehane. I appreciate everyones opinion but none of it really matters. Ben is obviously an accomplished shooter that spent years learning his trade and defending our precious country. Keep shooting budddy. I believe in you!

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denise July 27, 2013 at 12:00 am

how bout this guys-SAVAGE 308 BOLT/10-40X56 SCOPE and set your ass down.800 yards 3 of 3 cbc167 grain PT’s ina wrist watch! CHALLENGE ALL IN A 800 YARD SHOOTOUT.

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Cynicles October 28, 2013 at 10:58 pm

ZZzzz

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WBM November 2, 2013 at 11:57 am

Didn’t see anyone take you up on that denise. Team Savage surprised a lot of ZZzzz shooters. http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2009/08/savage-f-tr-team-world-beaters-on-a-budget/

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Ryan Sanislo December 4, 2013 at 2:44 pm

Before ordering a custom rifle from any maker I recommend a google search with their shop name with the word “review” behind it. Magazine reviews are nice but look for forums of regular people who paid good money for their builds and see what kind of work the shops put out on a regular basis.

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Jeff December 23, 2013 at 10:39 am

Nice job Ben and thank you for proudly serving our country. Opinions seem to vary based on what we may or may not have been exposed to. As an example, in the late 70′s Marines going through boot camp had to qualify at 200, 300 and 500 meters with M16A1 rifles, no scopes and the bulk ammo they gave us. It wasn’t uncommon to go 10-for-10 at 500 meters in the prone position with just a sling and nothing more than Marine Corps basic marksmanship training. Let’s face it, Ben has been through sniper training and who knows what other kind of advanced training and techniques he’s been exposed to. Unless you have had direct exposure to performance at this level how do you really know it’s not possible? For the record, I believe Ben made the shots.

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Mike Soltys January 27, 2014 at 3:11 pm

“If we know that five shots out of a rifle will all fall within 1 inch at 100 yards (actual 1.047 inches), we say that this is one 3600th of a circle in radius from the muzzle of the gun, or one ‘minute of angle.’”
Wrong. It is 1/21600 of a circle. 360×60 = 21600.
Good grief, is it that hard to get stuff like this correct?

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neal February 21, 2014 at 4:07 pm

I find these claims of accuracy laughable. 3″ at 1000yds, yeah right. those of you who believe this, please do some research first. Here is a quick example of why I choose not to believe it: http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek071.html

This shows a UK record at 1000yds set by 7mm WSM at 2.866″ for 5 shots, with a really heavy and BR specific rifle and experienced shooter (and is states the previous record was 3.357 in the UK, world is around 1.6″ I think). Also check the size of the targets used versus the targets in the above article that were shown with the 3″ group at 1000. I find it hard to believe the above shooter could actually see the target, which claims a 12″ outer cicle from above, let alone consistently hit a target that is probably not visible. Now, the shooter in this article does it twice, one 3″ and one 3.5″, on 12″ targets with this rifle. Somehow, I find this totally untrue.

what is with the second picture down, stating the “official product shot of the 3-12 power model?” Vortex doesn’t make a 3-12x razor.

Just too many questionable tidbits in this article to even come close to making me believe it.

this sounds more like an advertisement than an actual review. Remember, do your own homework and believe nothing you read on the net at first take.

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J. Craig February 28, 2014 at 11:32 am

I’ve seen ex snipers at 1000 yd competition and they have not shot better than the rest of the shooters. The lead sled is a help but the set up on a good bench rest with a 16lb bench rifle is at least as good and probably better. Lastly a range where you are there all day and shooting a variety of targets with that level of accuracy must have had no lighting changes in the form of transient cloud cover and no wind variation. In other words I would have to see this to believe. Then to assign skill to the performance I would have to see Ken repeat it. Until then I’m skeptical.

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John Isbell March 1, 2014 at 11:18 am

Guns like this will get you on the paper at any range. The rest is up to the shooter and his optics.

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John March 9, 2014 at 4:10 pm

The world record is actually 1.5″ from what we can determine online. That is why it was stated that that this is not in world record territory.

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