The redneck scientist, aka Demolition Ranch, conducts an experiment to see which round is superior, the .223 or the .308.
Which do you prefer?
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One thing that comes to my mind in a doomsday scenario is how readily will you be able to scrounge up ammo- should you run out. I’m carrying Mossberg 500 12 gauge, a Ruger 10/22, a Ruger 9mm handgun, a Keltec .380 Handgun, and a Stag Arms .223. Plus, all of my family members can handle handle every one of those.
Interesting video. A couple of thoughts. For those that don’t understand the cost thing, the cost revolves being able to practice more by either buying more ammo or reloading components. The 223 rem its cheaper than the 308 win. As others had said, 223rem ammo is lighter than 308 win thus able to carry more if you have to bug out on foot in SHTF. I don’t have a bug out location so would be force to bug in.
Even though I’m a big 308 win fan, I wonder if anyone has given consideration to their significant others/girl friends, children and family members. Most probably are not gun enthusiast like us thus unfamiliar with firearms and recoil. I’d bet they’d better able to shooter the 223rem more effectively than the 308win due to it’s recoil and rifle weight. The best chance to survive is to try to band together and arm them.
I believe a handgun is more viable option than either 223rem or 308win due to it’s concealability. The best option for survival is stealth and blinding in with the crowd. Walking around with a black rifle/AR with multiple mags strap to you is going draw a lot of attention, IMHO. Unwanted attention. My opinion is that attention will get you killed.
Interesting thread. Lots of … information. Which to choose… 5.56mm or 7.62mm? Well, for my purposes… if I actually anticipated that the fecal material was about to hit the fan, I’d opt for … .30-06… specifically M-2 AP. Why? Simple. I would go to ground. I wouldn’t be out running around attracting attention from anyone. That I’d leave up to the tacticool folks. I’d stay low… wait. If things settled down, I’d see if there was some way to fit into the developing post-collapse economy. I’d try to hook up with other folks who were willing to work together. The loners would not make it.
I can actually shoot either acurately. Anything shot effectively in the triangle will perish. 10/22 with a can on the end as needed and plenty of light weight ammo, single 6 mainly because I’ve had it all my life, scatter gun, 7mag for distance, etc… I would probably have to keep my AK and glock close also because they are indestructible.
I’ve got access to almost anything that goes bang that you can think of. If I was only allowed to leave with one firearm in the typical “SHTF” scenario – I’d take a quality .22 (pistol or rifle, i.e. Buckmark, 10/22, etc.) with a suppressor and a brick of ammo. If that makes no sense to you, that makes it an even better choice!!
#1 should worry about where you will find your next prescription of blood pressure medicine after the collapse of society.Then practice running down to the mail box if you can make it, to check on your SS check. Seriously can’t believe all the armchair special forces on this sight . PATHETIC
Funny but so true.
I’ve been singing this song for years. Funny thing? You can’t “stock up” on bp meds as far as I know, without stealing or being dishonest. I still shit my pants about this issue every damn day that Kim Jong potato head continues to breathe.
Anyone knows for real how to get my bp meds stocked up legally, please let me know!
Thanks!
The only way I know to stock up on BP meds would involve taking a trip to a border town. That trip might now be as dangerous as some of these bizarre scenarios.
We have seen the SHTF play out in real life. Look no further than Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans for what happens when disaster strikes. Within hours armed gangs started attacking unarmed business and homes looting, robbing, raping, and murdering people. Even the police were looting and murdering people. Imagine this happening in 5, 10, 30 states from a Solar flare or EMP attack. Only the prepared would stand a chance. It would take 6 months to restore power minimum. Keep your firearms and ammunition handy just in case.
And keep your mouth shut. Can’t even begin to list all the friends/relatives that tell me, “If the SHTF, I’m coming to YOUR house!” My reply,? “No…I’m coming to YOURS!”
I’m really surprised no one’s mentioned anything about the virtues of the .300 BKT (Blackout). Yes, I know the .300BKT is not a .308. but it sure offers a bunch more knock down at say under 200 yds, as well as barricade pen. It’s also loadable subsonic, uses the exact same cases as .556 (sizing), and the same mags as 556. It’s actually possible to load the same bullets as what’s commonly used in .308. Ultimately one could have two guns/ two cal.s and ammo, by only having a swappable upper in an AR config using the same lower and mags. This .556 v. .308 topic is a hackneyed one to be sure, and I’m not even weighing in really, but like I said, it is sort of interesting that the .300 BKT hasn’t been mentioned, albeit it’s a bit off topic.
.300 B.O.? What’s that? Oh yeah, the overpriced re-invented 7.62×39.
Build yourself a 10.5″ upper in 7.62×39, throw a Black River Arms nickel teflon coated bolt carrier, an LMT bolt and a BCM ambi charging handle on her and run Hornady SST 123gr thru C Defense mags and forget the overpriced, overrated .300 B.O.
Throw an Elftmann Drop in service trigger or Hiperfire EDT3 or their 24E in your lower with the money you’ll save from the first case purchase of ammo.
Or, stick with a 20″ AR and run Hornady’s 75gr TAP. You can own what you see to 600 meters.
As always, YMMV
Blah,blah,blah. Everyone has one, all are right, and all are wrong. No one formula fits all possible scenarios. SHTF? Now that depends on EXACTLY what takes place. I can just visualize thousands of guys traipsing through the woods (Land that probably belongs to someone ELSE, that doesn’t want you there.) shooting each other for a place to eat tree bark and wait on a slow death. Stealth is king in any situation. Regardless of what you carry.
So very true
Best comment by far. Kudos & ditto.
I know that a lot of guys like to fantasize and prepare for SHTF. I have to admit that I have emergency supplies myself. This is the way I see it though. If SHTF and I see a guy walking toward my house in full battle gear, I would likely shoot him and then ask his intentions. Also,for you ammo collectors, if you really fantasize about running and gunning, using a thousand rounds of ammo and you don’t picture just one bullet taking you down then you are truly fantasizing.
A nice video. I’m a 308 man. If you plan to use a 308 as a bug out rifle. You would pack accordingly. I have ammo stashed in multiple locations. If you ever have to bug out. You would already have a plan. The weight of ammo wouldn’t be a issue.
I personally have 5 different locations to go to. Yes they are all equipped with food water and many extra’s. Yes , each of the locations are far apart and concealed. If you have a plan weight isn’t a issue.
I was really getting in to this until somebody had to bring up that crap about running a mile. you just ruined my fantasy about mowing down the bad guys with my M14 while my family looks on with adoring eyes.Truth be known must of us who comment these web sites couldn’t run a quarter mile in Jim shorts and tennis shoes little alone a mile in full battle gear and bring any kind of fight with us.
But boy you you should have seen me forty years ago
I was really getting in to this until somebody had to bring up that crap about running a mile. you just ruined my fantasy about mowing down the bad guys with my M14 while my family looks on with adoring eyes.Truth be known must of us who comment these web sites couldn’t run a quarter mile in Jim shorts and tennis shoes little alone a mile in full battle gear and run a mile and bring any kind of fight with us.
But boy you you should have seen me forty years ago
.223 sucks… .308 is a boss. Dependable, powerful, trusted.
the only serious answer is whichever one you can place on target the most competently and confidently… a single hit with a .223 beats 10 misses with a .308.. period, end of discussion…
OK, now just go online and order yourself one of those 1 in 12″ barrels. Yeah, I didn’t think so.
I read an article on the difference twist rate make on soft tissue damage. It turns out the old 1 in 12 is much more effective the the now almost exclusively used 1 in 7. The slower spin destabilizes the bullet on impact with soft tissue, doing as much or more damage as a hollow point with the fast spin. Here is another article: http://www.futurefirepower.com/myths-about-the-nato-556-cartridge
The 1in12 barrels were used on the original M16 that shot 50gr FMJ bullets and these barrels can not stabilize any type of heavy .223 or 5.56 ammo over any distance making the rifle useful for a 40gr type varmint rifle. Or if you hope to place excellent shots use a 1in 12 twist rate lightweight.223 bolt action rifle that would top out at 50 gr or so. A decently effective varmint rifle, although there are much better cartridges for that, and rifles for that matter, these days. But as many say it’s to each his/her own, and a big one for me, how much real world training do you have with either cartridge/plateform and if that’s just hunting then hid and ride the whole thing out, or travel only when you know you are least likely to encounter anyone. Because there is and I need to repeat this for all you tactifools out there, there is no replacement for real world training that would show you, either travel when it’s safe, or don’t travel, or travel at night in a platoon sized element that has proper gear, is in shape, and has trained together for a very long time. So that you operate like an SF type element where you know each other so well you don’t even need to speak to each other, and can kick ass and be out of an area of operations(AO) so fast the other guy didn’t even know what happened or what hit them. We carried an average of between 85-110lbs in Afghanistan, and maybe a bit less in Iraq due to resupply, and that’s not for more than a week or so. How many of you are capable of that for sustained periods of time who are commenting right now? If not then the whole conversation is a moot point! I know I can’t do it anymore not with all the injuries I sustained on my last tour so I am out! I will be bugging in until it’s no longer possible. If during this SHTF situation it gets to that point I have plans in place and plenty of good friends along the way to hole us up until we can move on to our final destination. Personally just to weigh in on this silliness, I would rather carry a full combat load of 5.56 Black Hills 77gr SMK OTM ammo plus a few extra mags, with proper rifle/carbine which I am sure you boys can figure out. It would be a lot easier on the back than a full combat load of 7.62×51 ammo and the rifle to go with no? Anyway enjoy everyone. Oh and one more for the guys who say they will just stage ammo and supplies either buried or well hidden along their chosen bug out route and they won’t have to carry all that, well what if your route or even your secondary one isn’t passable when you bug out then what?
The operator might be the biggest factor in which is “better” 7.62 nato Hits harder, will penetrate MucH better and is very accurate. The 7.62 therefore is the “better” round. The question is what would be the most PRACTICAL round! The one that you have trained with!!!
Garbage Article by a Garbage Author on a Garbage Site with a Garbage Web Page with garbage comments..I don’t know why I bother…
If you want to shoot people, get a 223. If you want to shoot both people and animals, get a 308.
How many times will this issue be rehashed ? Gotta wonder how many range rats can even run a mile much less fight their way out of a wet paper bag in any event or matter ?
More important than comparing rounds is your own ability and mindset no matter what you are shooting, by far ! Besides I do far prefer 7.62×39 and 7.62X54 for many reasons based on many years first hand experience, not what is on many website forums ?
My choice is the 30 cal, but that is my choice. I also would like to ask did you know about shooting steel is 100 yards min safe distance. I know a lot of people that do it and get away without being hit but come on be safe when showing other people who have no idea of what firearm safety is in the first place.
First of all if your .223 tumbles it’s time for a new barrel. This guy read about the first m-16s the army experimented with in the early 60s. It does not have an arched trajectory. The forces of gravity start acting on ALL bullets when they leave the muzzle (laws of physics)! That being said I am a .308 guy,(and full time gunsmith, NOT a parts swapper) but if I had to choose between an m1a(m14 semiautomatic) for a bug out gun, I would hands down choose the AR simply because you are going to be humping this thing along with supplies ammo, ect. On your back not in your truck. Try that with your m1a and 10 full mags for a day then tell me which one you would choose. By the way dead is dead no matter how you get that way. I just won’t be out of breath when you get that way!
Best, most logic driven response so far!
You obviously know your $h1+
Plus most guns you will find/capture/etc will be of that type and caliber.
One last thing… the 223/5.56 nato round is an anti personnel bullet that tumbles and has an arced trajectory. This is why M-14s are better sniper rifles
WHAT? Where in the $#@& did you learn exterior ballistics? The 223/5.56 DOES NOT tumble. Secondly ALL bullets have an “arced” trajectory.
Actually they do. The SS109, green tip, has a lead her making it heavier in the rear. When the bullet hits and starts to slow the back end, being heavier will try to change places. The bullet starts to tumble. A little research on the design/specifications on your part wouldn’t make you look like such an ass.
If you would get out of your mothers basement every once in a while and actually do some ballistic testing, stop listening to your video games then you would know that you are actually the one who looks like an ASS!!!
Once SHTF, there will be no buying of ammunition. Therefore, those of you who speak this/that about cost, are wrong in that sense. It is what you already have when the SHTF. Some cases, variety is good, in that what ever you can scarf up or trade for, might be good. So it might serve to have more than one weapon, caliber. I have both, and then some. Savvy folks are steadily stocking up on all calibers as available. Agree with most, know your weapons and how to make the one shot count. Learn to be calm in the face of adversary in order to make the shot count. Often the inexperienced will fire multiple rounds without careful aim, giving you time to place your shot. I also agree with others, in that best to be a ghost and not confront anyone if you can help it.
Another great video, keep them coming down range…
great demo. get good at a weapon U R comfortable with.ACCURACY IN MY OPINION IS THE KEY TOO 1 SHOT 1 KILL. At 100-200 yds the 223 will get the job done. 300 yds + I go for the 308. SEMPER FI
Why give all this advice to YOUR competitive rivals , LOL!!
In SHTF the main source of ammo will be off dead people on the street. The vast majority of those will carry either 223 or 7.62×39. Remember, those dead people are the ones who have no training or military skills and are following the crowd with their AR15s and AK47s.
One should be careful about making assumptions. As has been learned the hard way in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc., untrained people with rifles and whatever else they get their hands on can end up being a lot more difficult than one might assume. We’ve got a lot of families in the U.S. who know by experience how nasty such stuff can get. When you get right down to it, if the feces hits the fan, the winners will be those who learn to work together… and those who can hunker down, hide and wait for things to settle down.
My choice is the 30 caliber bullet hands down. I won’t be using FMJ during a collapse. 30 caliber is the only choice when it comes to hunting big game. the 30 caliber can do everything the 22 caliber can do, but not vice-versa. It’s inhumane to hunt big game with a .223. The .30 caliber bullet will stop deer, bear, elk, moose and people. I’m not concerned with carrying thousands of rounds of ammo. Make the first shot count as you may not get a second. If you miss — remember that missing is for dead men !! In a collapse situation, you should be avoiding firefights with groups of others anyway. One lucky shot by an opposing shooter, and it isn’t going to matter what caliber you are carrying or how many. The best plan is to remain invisible ….
Since the subject is SHTF, I would say if I must be on the move I would favor an AR and .223 due to weight and number of rounds I could carry. In a static position I might prefer .308 to defeat vehicles being used to force their way into our hideout. In real SHTF I will probably be found with an S&W 617 10 round .22 revolver, a scoped 10/22 and THOUSANDS of rounds of .22LR.
Your understanding is exceptional.!
I just built a New .308 Platform…would appreciate your advice/suggestions.!
Remington 700 AAC-SD Tactical..20 inch Barrel, 1-10 twist.
XLR Industries Element Stock,…
Swarovski 4x16x50 Habicht Scope.
Caldwell bi-pod
10Rd Accurate Mag.
I swear…I could circumcise a Gnat…at 100 yds.!! LOL.!!!
I was able to build this for just under $2K.!
Your understanding is exceptional.!
I just built a New .308 Platform…would appreciate your advice/suggestions.!
Remington 700 AAC-SD Tactical..20 inch Barrel, 1-10 twist.
XLR Industries Element Stock,…
Swarovski 4x16x50 Habicht Scope.
Caldwell bi-pod
10Rd Accurate Mag.
I swear…I could circumcise a Gnat…at 100 yds.!! LOL.!!!
I was able to build this for just under $2K.!
There is a lot of misinformation and a host of misunderstandings.
My choice would be 308. Barrier blind, suitable and loadable for any rifle need. There is also a larger than realized source of ammunition components. There are many non-military rounds that use the 308 parent case. There are a lot of non-military rounds that use a 7.62 / 308 caliber projectile. Keep in mind that the 7.62 x 51mm is still widely used by nato forces. It just isn’t standard issue for all regular troops.
Yes the 223 is more effective than most realize but it is not the 308 and is not as widely adaptable.
I own and operate multiple systems with both rounds being discussed. I’m not just a firearms enthusiast, I am a ballistics enthusiast.
“Bring enough gun”.
Good luck. Pursue knowledge as it is infinite and forever evolving.
Between the (3) of us, we have a Win.243,.257WM,.25-06,(2).30-06,(4).30-30s.
Our targets set at 300 yards.
Don’t tread on us.
What is your group\’s position on the Second Amendment?
Ar-15 is lighter weight to carry both rifle and ammo. Recoil is less. Missing with a .50 cal isnt as good as hitting with a .22 cal short. Practice as often as you can afford. .223 is less expensive . So in a SHTF situation I prefer the .223 in an ar-15. Buck
Having experience with both the .223 and 308 with 22 years Army service. Yes, if you need something with more punch at less yards, a .308 would be the choice. However, a situation of engaging an armed threat at distances of 300+ yards, with terminal velocity, the .223/5.56mm is the way to go and is my choice. Cost of .223 ammo is cheaper than .308. If you are only interested in sniping, then go with the .308
Wait. Do we have a misunderstood or misinformed poster here? The 308 for short distances with the 223 having superior long range and terminal velocity than the 308? But use the 308 for sniper work? Some ballistics education is needed here.
Thank you!!! .223 is garbage compared to a .308
Was thinking the same thing. .223 doesn’t even compare with the .308.
Nado2036 – There are a lot of dead people with 5.56 rounds in them, and they are at ambient temperature now. A hit with a 5.56 trumps a miss with 7.62. There is a lot of prejudice towards both calibers, but most average sized people are more accurate with the 5.56mm – that’s an inescapable fact.
SFC
Any bullet will kill a person!!! Your logic is idiotic to say the least. .308 travels further, hits harder. Try looking at ballistic every once in a while instead of just winging it.
My experience is if you had a longer barrel you would have done more damage. The 7.62 is what the M-60 uses and Ive put those through the wall of a concrete block building and besides that it has a maximum effective range of 1100 meters!
.223 for one reason:
It’s the most common caliber for armalite style rifles, including the NATO military issue select fire versions.
Ammo is abundant. When the SHTF, ammo will be more valuable than gold.
I wanted more conclusion!
I have .222 still a popular European hunting choice. The .223 a similar military round is not intended to be available to civilians in most of Europe. For the reasons stated by Rollin above. Any caliber is better than none, once you get confronted make the best of the situation.
I brought a CZ 527 in .222 a few years ago in an estate sale and have found it to be one of the most, off the bench, accurate rifles I own.
I keep hoping someone will come out with an AR 15 chambered in .222 but I don’t think it’s going to happen. It seems to be a round that has been realagated to the pages of the past, at least here in the states which is a shame because it’s a great round.
David, the .223 Remington is not a military caliber. The correct designation for the Nato round is 5.56 mm . Ballistically speaking, 5.56 ammo is loaded to higher chamber pressures than 2.23, which means increased terminal ballistics and higher downrange velocities than .223. the same is true with .222 and 5.56mm.
Thank you so much for making this video for us. I would like to see a free give away every once in awhile. Just makes it that much more worth it to spend my time watching your videos. By the way do you happen to have a barrel shroud you are trying to get rid of? I have a 15 inch handguard on a 16 inch barrel I am trying to cover up the barrel Gap.
This was a great video very informative. Thank you for making it for us. Hey give away every once in awhile would be awesome though. Just another way to attract new viewers. By the way do you have any brochures you’re trying to get rid of? I need one to cover up this gap on my 16 inch barrel with 15 inch handguard
The test makes some very good points as to why the 223/5.56 is more practical over the 308/7.62 X 51. 1. Weight of the ammo in a bug out 2. Magazine Round capacity 3. Cost of 308 win versus 223 Rem per round 4. Over penetration in a home defense situation 5. Wight of the 223 Rem versus 308 Win. I prefer 77 grain 5.56 OTM in my 1/8 twist POF Renegade Plus same round our SF troops use in their M-4. But of course that\’s based on barrel twist. In my Windham SRC with a 1/9 twist I do practice with 55 grain 223 REM and 5.56 and it will work for SHTF if this was my only rifle, but my Home Defense mags are loaded with Hornady 223 TAP 75 grain. The 77 grain OTM is pushing the limits of accuracy out of a 1/9 twist but, that\’s why I have my POF Renegade Plus. Don\’t get me wrong the 308 Win has it\’s place in tactical operations and they\’re being made lighter and more adaptable for our Soldiers and Marines needs. But I guess it all comes down to personal preference for us veterans and civilians. In the coming presidential election it may be a good idea to go out get you an AR-10, M1A1, or other 308 while we still can.
@Joe McHugh – Joe, I have been using my Marlin Model 57 lever action .22 WMR for squirrels for the past 50 years, not always one shot kills but most always a kill. Am I doing something wrong??
C’mon Joe, Maynard is comfortable with his .223, you are comfortable with both your .223 AND your .308, and I am quite sure that, unless all out civil war breaks out in this great land, I will be able to ruin a few perp’s afternoons should they attempt to enter my home or try to threaten my health, safety, or welfare. We are what we are, we all like what we like, and opinions are like butt holes, we ALL have one. So get over it and enjoy life.
If you forsee your self needing a sniper round, the 308 is the way to go. But if you want to hit targets <500 meters and want to be able to afford and carry enough ammo to do some good. 223 is the way to go.
And that video proved what? If you are in a bugout situation and can only carry 1 gun, why go for the weaker caliber, unless you can’t hit the broad side of a barn with the more powerful cartridge.
Usually when we speak pf “SHTF”, we are referring to a post collapse America. Along with that is the assumption, that there will be gun confiscations and martial law with check points etc.
Since confiscations cannot be avoided if the opposing force approaches each gun owner with overwhelming numbers, firepower, and resolved intent to kill to defeat resistance. The important priority then becomes what weapons are made available by those opposing forces which can be obtained through guerrilla tactics. In other words, the enemy brings a constant supply of weapons and ammo which can be taken from them.
Otherwise for those who have an off site storage cache, I would opt for the 223 because it is more easily silenced and guerrilla tactics depend on silence and surprise.
Guess then it depends then who your fighting Muslim terrorist are all carrying AK47’s.
How long do you plan to allow them to carry those AKs? More than a few minutes will be too long. Take your .30-30 lever action and erase them, then you have their AKs. SHTF means economic collapse, and that means ALL supplies will cease to exist – you will need to take and adapt to theirs, which will be whatever it is, our you will be dead by then.
Guess then it depends then who your fighting Muslim terrorist are all carrying AK47\’s.
Finally, a realistic statement. We can’t match well armed full auto, RPGs, etc. or Heavy vehicles. So….take them away just like isis has done; only they got help from BHO who is in our W.H. Guerilla tactics have always been effective. So fight with what you got and take what they have.
your new web site is awful cant find
what your looking for. the old site was just click and go simple and easy . sometimes new is not better !!
After watching the video I am glad I have one of each.
I hate this new site of yours, can never find anything here, before it was great. FYI fix it please,page is always blank
What do you mean? When looking for listings?
I have been using my sako .222 for deer for many years. All one shot kills. Says something about the .223 vs 308. I use Hornady spire point 60 grain bullets.
Maynard, I have been using my Sako Delux .222 for woodchucks for many years. I use my Winchester Model 70 .308 for deer. Am I doing something wrong?
All I’ve got to say , is for years the military carried 308 and 3006 ! I guess back then men were men and stronger than the puffed up guys of today. I own (8) 308 s and can hit a mats ass at 300 yards and pit 10 rounds in a single ragged hole size of a nickel at that range . Have shot many deer and hogs more than most people would see in their life time . Nothing has ever walked away from my 308. My longest kill from a stand is 704yards ! Shoot what you have and know your weapon. I prefer to have only one type round . And one round for self defense and its 45 cap. I know their capabilities and only have to reload for those . I firmly believe the old saying fear the man with one gun . As it is a extension of himself. So shoot what you like and are comfortable with as bullets missing their mark is just a waste of ammo.
Amen Woodstuff! “It’s not the # of rounds that you put downrange…but it’s the HITS that count.” Breathe in/Exhale/Hold/Squeeze One Shot…On Kill USMC RVN
SHTF – it run what you have… 223 lighter can carry more, 308
Better knock down either close or at range. Yes hits mean more than rounds down range or distance.
No one round is perfect. It’s up to the individual and the situation. High ground worth more than weapon, or better said location location location.