The Supreme Court heard oral arguments this week for New York State Rifle & Pistol Association v. Bruen, a case examining whether New York’s may-issue licensing scheme is constitutional.
The short answer is, no, it’s not.
Several of the right-leaning justices on the high court alluded to this during the back-and-forth questioning with the bureaucrats charged with defending the standard that requires one to provide a “proper cause” to a local judge or CLEO before one is allowed to discreetly bear a handgun in public for self-defense.
“You can say that the right is limited in a particular way, just as First Amendment rights are limited, but the idea that you would need a license to exercise that right I think is unusual in the context of the Bill of Rights,” said Chief Justice John Roberts to acting U.S. Solicitor General Brian Fletcher, who backs the state’s interest on behalf of the Biden Administration.
Justice Brett Kavanaugh was even more pointed in his critique, indicating to New York Solicitor General Barbara Underwood that the may-issue standard is problematic because it allows those in power to arbitrarily deny 2A rights to law-abiding citizens.
“That’s the real concern, isn’t it, with any constitutional right? If it’s the discretion of an individual officer, that seems inconsistent with an objective constitutional right,” observed Kavanaugh.
Kavanaugh made another excellent point about the lack of credible evidence that permissive concealed carry standards, like shall-issue or even constitutional carry, lead to spikes in crime.
“Before you impose more restrictions on individual citizens and infringe their constitutional right based on this theory, you should have to show, well, in those other states that have shall-issue regimes, actually there’s more accidents, crime,” he said.
Given the makeup of the bench (6-3 right-leaning justices), in all likelihood, SCOTUS will strike down the “proper cause” requirement and New York, along with the other 8 or so states with a may-issue scheme, will be forced to switch to a shall-issue system whereby judges or CLEOs are compelled to issue a permit if the applicant meets objective requirements.
But the question remains, how hard is it to get a concealed carry permit in New York?
I finally got my pistol permit earlier this year. It took me about 10 months from when I submitted the application to when I was finally issued my permit.
However, all counties in New York are different. Some of the more rural counties with pro-gun judges move a lot faster than the more populous counties with big cities. And, some counties don’t really issue them at all unless one is politically connected or a retired LEO, hence the lawsuit SCOTUS is debating right now.
Filling out the application paperwork sucks. In my county, not only do you need to provide a proper cause that is unique to your situation (you can’t copy and paste a generic answer nor can you simply write “because the 2A says I can”) but you need to have four character references on your application. The application must also be notarized and filled out in black ink only. Blue ink, for whatever reason, is not acceptable.
Some municipalities take it one step further in that they require all or some of your character references to be in the neighborhood that you reside. This didn’t affect me because my town didn’t have that restriction. But you can see how that would be problematic, especially for someone who is new to the area and doesn’t know anyone yet.
As part of the application packet, you need to prove that you successfully completed a state-approved concealed carry class. Interestingly enough, there was no live-fire requirement. My class was about $75 and lasted 4 hours. It was mainly discussions about the law, the use of force, and best-concealed carry practices.
One thing to note is that not all permits are equal. New York offers conditional permits and unrestricted permits. Conditional, for example, would only allow one to carry in the context of hunting or while working a certain job whereas unrestricted allows one to carry 24/7 in any place or setting where it’s lawful. I was lucky enough to get an unrestricted permit my first go-round, but I know friends who weren’t so fortunate. They were issued a conditional permit, and then had to take additional classes and resubmit paperwork to get an unrestricted one.
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After you submit your application, you’re interviewed by a local sheriff’s deputy. He writes up a report following the interview and submits it to a judge for approval. My interview was over the phone and he asked me about my familiarity with firearms, whether I had suicidal ideations, if I consumed alcohol to excess frequently, if I ever committed an act of domestic violence, if I had ever been arrested, among other questions.
Oh, and this is where it gets interesting. When I was a bartender in college, I was cited for serving adults under 21. I was 18 at the time. In any event, I was given probation for six months and the incident was purportedly “expunged.” Except for that nothing is ever “expunged” from police records. So, as part of the application requirement, I had to travel to the town in which I was cited, go to the county clerk’s office, and obtain a copy of the record showing that the charge was, indeed, dismissed following the probationary period.
That incident happened more than 20 years ago! Yet, it was still on the record. Had I not provided the proof of dismissal I would have been denied a permit.
It’s worth noting that in New York, you cannot even possess a handgun until you have a permit. Moreover, all handguns must be registered with the state. The details (make, type, caliber, serial number, model) of every handgun you own are listed on the back of your permit, and any time you purchase a new handgun you have to pay $5 to update your permit with the new information. Possession of an unregistered handgun is a crime, even if you have a pistol permit.
Long story short, it’s a major pain in the butt. But that’s by design, of course. New York wants to make it as difficult as possible for responsible citizens to exercise a fundamental right. Let’s hope that the high court puts an end to this madness. A decision is expected sometime this coming Spring.
Concerning JD’s post; You do not need to purchase a gun to get your permit started. You are allowed to co-register handguns in NY so you can use a friend or relatives handgun information to get your permit started.
Anti-gunners frequently make bogus claims concerning levels of crime committed with guns. They almost never cite their sources for their information. Fortunately, on the Second Amendment side, Thethere are readily available data in the form of The FBI Uniform Crime Statistics, appearing yearly in, “The World Almanac and Book of Facts”. When confronting an anti, bloviating how “more guns, more crime”, slam the book on the table and read them the facts.
Let me make a further comment on NYS pistol licensing. On your original application for concealed carry permit (there is NO open carry in NY-only concealed) you have to list the pistol/revolver by serial number on your application. So first you have to purchase the weapon at the gun store, get a bill of sale or deposit with S/N, make, caliber on the bill of sale. And attach that to your application. Some gun stores require you to show a pistol permit before they will let you handle a pistol. So in effect NYS says you have to first buy a weapon you cannot even handle, let alone shoot, before you can take possession. If your application is approved by authorities you receive the actual permit with the weapon listed AND another form authorizing the gun shop to release the gun (which you may have never touched) to you. Slightly easier if you later purchase another pistol/revolver. Usually easier to get concealed carry the further you live from NYC. You cannot sell a pistol to another person with a CCW permit. You first have to sell it to a gun store who takes possession of your pistol and then background checks the other CCW holder again even though he/she has a valid permit. After the background check the gun shop sells the gun to the new owner on their paperwork. And of course you have to pay them a fee for this. Sometimes over $50. NYS makes it difficult all the time.
I obtained a NY permit in 1999. It took six months then. I was required to submit fingerprints, five character witnesses; there were country, state and federal background checks; I had to indicate that I wanted it for hunting, target practice and self defense, or it would be a limited permit. I much prefer life here in SD. Carry anything you want, no permit. I’ve followed the litigation here for years and hope NYSRPA prevails.
Not to mention that putting “self defense” in the form for the purpose of applying for a license is an automatic denial.
As a survivor of living in Ny (Long Island, moved after 18 yrs) and someone who had to deal with the permit system that entire time, I can tell you it’s a mess. It takes 10 – 12 mo to get a permit, if approved you get a sportsman license that allows you to go to and from the range, that’s it. Rarely someone get a full carry on LI and the city, upstate it is a little less strict.
After you finally have your license and want to buy a pistol, it is still a mess.. you find the firearm you want, then travel to the police licensing office and obtain purchase paperwork. You then go back to the FFL and buy the firearm and have your purchase paperwork filled out. Then you go back to the licensing office with the firearm and paperwork and they register it in your name and list it on your license card. Get caught with a firearm not listed on your card and it’s trouble..
Anytime you question the people at the licensing office they threaten to pull your license. They will also tell you that since the firearm is licensed in NY, it cannot leave the state unless you ship it FFL to FFL. When we finally moved they told me I could not just pack up my firearms and move them….. nothing but a bunch of anti gun bullies who make up rules and restrictions as they see fit! MY GOD I AM GLAD WE FINALLY ESCAPED!
I may be able to shed some light on the blue verses black ink. In the early days of ‘photo copiers’, the copiers would not copy the blue ink, (think blue light verses white light). So all documents had to be in black including any signatures, (also of note is the military’s requirement of black ink), more modern technology has negated the blue ink issues for the copiers today but some office’s still cling to the black ink standard.