Should ‘Suspected’ (Not Convicted) Terrorists Be Denied 2A Rights w/o Due Process?

So there’s a growing rift in the gun community over a bill that would give the government the power to remove one’s right to keep and bear arms if the government reasonably believes that individual is a terrorist or connected to terrorist activities.  In short, one only has to be a “suspected” terrorist to lose his/her 2A rights, not a convicted terrorist.

A version of this bill will likely be voted on in the Senate in the very near future.  To give you a little more background, this bill is based on the “Denying Firearms and Explosives to Dangerous Terrorists Act,” and was introduced by Rep. Peter King (R-NY) following the shooting attacks in Paris.

The basics of the bill:

  • Prohibits the sale or distribution of firearms or explosives to any individual whom the Attorney General has determined to be engaged in terrorist activities.
  • Permits the Attorney General to withhold information in firearms and explosives license denial revocation suits if the Attorney General determines that the disclosure of such information would likely compromise national security.
  • Authorizes the Attorney General to revoke firearms and explosives licenses and permits held by individuals determined to be engaged in terrorism.
  • Allows any individual whose firearm or explosives license application has been denied to bring legal action challenging the denial.

Surprisingly, the nation’s gun lobby supports this approach to fighting terrorism, despite the very real concerns it raises about violating one’s Constitutional rights.

“The NRA believes that terrorists should not be allowed to purchase or possess firearms, period. Anyone on a terror watchlist who tries to buy a gun should be thoroughly investigated by the FBI and the sale delayed while the investigation is ongoing. If an investigation uncovers evidence of terrorist activity or involvement, the government should be allowed to immediately go to court, block the sale, and arrest the terrorist,” said the National Rifle Association in a statement.

“At the same time, due process protections should be put in place that allow law-abiding Americans who are wrongly put on a watchlist to be removed,” it continues.

The NRA’s position on this matter, which also reflects that of GOP presumptive presidential nominee Donald Trump, has drawn immediate criticism from various organizations within the gun community.

One such group is the National Association for Gun Rights, which in a press release called on Trump and the NRA to reject any plan to remove one’s 2A rights without due process.

“It should scare every American that Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, or, for that matter, Donald Trump, could put law-abiding citizens on a secret list which would deny them their constitutional rights,” said Dudley Brown, President of the National Association for Gun Rights.

“And it would be shocking if the NRA or any allegedly pro-gun group supported such a scheme,” Brown said.

As NAGR correctly points out, the terrorist watchlist, which contains as many as 800,000 names, is far from a perfect system.  The names of many law-abiding citizens have been incorrectly added to that list, including TSA employees, members of Congress an airline captain, a lawyer and even an eight-year-old child.  Additionally, there is no way to check whether or not you’re on the list, short of being detained by a TSA agent when you try to board your flight at an airport.

No joke.  As the FBI states, it “cannot reveal whether a particular person is in the TSDB [Terrorist Screen Database]… If TSC revealed who was in the TSDB, terrorist organizations would be able to circumvent the purpose of the terrorist watchlist by determining in advance which of their members are likely to be questioned or detained.”

So, it’s a secret list that inverts the paradigm of our justice system by maintaining that one is guilty until he/she proves himself/herself innocent. What this means is once you’re slapped with the suspected terrorist label you’re rights are suspended indefinitely, even without your knowledge.  Suppose, though, that you find out that you’re on the list, now you may be able to sue in court, per the bill’s language, or file a redress complaint with the agency that put you on that list, but who knows how long it will take for the government to get around to setting the record straight (I actually looked it up, the average wait time for the redress complaint processing was 67 days, according to the DOJ.  Still, there are no guarantees that they’ll be that swift each and every time).  Meanwhile, your rights are deferred.  And a right deferred is a right denied!    

“Unfortunately Republican surrender monkeys in Congress, including Sen. John Cornyn (R-TX), are actively working on a compromise that would, by the time it makes it through Congress, destroy due process,” said Brown.

“Simply put, gun control is the problem and Congress should be working towards repealing gun free zones that only aid terrorists and criminals in their rampages,” stated Brown, “But the absolute worst thing Congress could do is ram through poorly drafted legislation, ripe for abuse, in the middle of anti-gun hysteria.”

What’s most irksome to me is that we live in 1984.  The surveillance state isn’t coming, it’s already here.  Don’t believe me?  Just do a little research and watch some of the talks given by whistleblower Edward Snowden.  Our government’s surveillance apparatus — the tools and technology of the DHS, NSA, CIA, FBI — is amazingly large and sophisticated.  They know way more about us than they let on.  They know who owns firearms and who doesn’t.  They know exactly who the terrorists are (think about it, they interviewed the Orlando shooter at least 13 times!).  The old quip, which the FBI director used the other day, about finding a needle in a haystack is completely laughable nowadays when the watchers at these agencies have the capacity to pinpoint the exact location of every needle in that proverbial haystack (where it’s been, where it is and where it’s going). Simply put, they have an ungodly amount of power already.  This bill, well, it’s just some more icing on the totalitarian cake.

{ 80 comments… add one }
  • John G June 18, 2016, 4:36 pm

    National security supersedes any individual rights. ! Anyone under investigation for terror organization ties should be on the list. Guilty until proven innocent. Enough politically correctness. As a lawful gun owner, that’s my opinion and common sense.
    Terror attacks are by Muslim radicals mostly. Let’s not kid ourselves.

    • Chris H March 18, 2017, 12:42 am

      OK….As long as ONLY radical Muslims are affected by this I could get on board. Who determines who is on “the list” though? YOU could wind up on it. Bet that would change your tune…..

  • Les June 18, 2016, 4:01 pm

    The one thing no one want’s to talk about is the main issue here. Mental Illness!!! Back in the 1970’s and 80’s the care bears told the people that people didn’t need to be in mental hospitals, that they would take there meds and be productive people. Most of us know that is not the case. The government needs to start looking at the cause of the problem not how to over react after the fact.

    • John G June 18, 2016, 4:53 pm

      Mental illness has nothing to do with terroristic attacks.
      These are religious fanatics!
      They are fully aware of what they’re doing. It’s premeditated murder! As a former military I feel that we must review our values and basic principles above all else.

      • Ray March 17, 2017, 9:15 am

        Mental illness is NO excuse for bad behavior.

    • Dave June 20, 2016, 9:55 am

      Mentally-ill people are responsible for around four percent of violence. They are more often the victims than the victimizers.

  • El Alemain June 18, 2016, 1:17 pm

    How long until being cleared through a background check automatically places you on the no fly list? Of course, a computer “glitch” would be blamed. And somehow no one will ever get around to fixing it.

  • Pat J June 18, 2016, 11:46 am

    This is a self-loathing homosexual murdering other homosexuals in an homosexual-oriented watering hole with a legally obtained rifle used in a willfully planned illegal way. This box of cat shit wasn’t a moslem terrorist, just an inaccurate name dropper.
    The country’s gone gaga for all things “gay”. It’s easier to blame guns and fuckheads like us, than face the fact that this pathetic misery was caused by a rogue petunia. They texted, they tweeted, they hugged, they bled, they cried, but nobody returned fire-the only response that mattered. Live or die returning fire. Fuck the GFZ.

  • joe June 18, 2016, 8:01 am

    Keep in mind anyone reading this is a suspected terrorist.

    • Mahatma Muhjesbude June 18, 2016, 12:52 pm

      Certain aspects of our American Freedom lifestyle that simply CANNOT be mitigated, restricted, or even compromised. No matter what supposedly humanitarian justification for safety or security is truly or speciously presented.

      As the last Free Standing Populate on the planet, the 2nd/A and Constitutional Due Process is one of these. Perhaps the most important of all.

      Because NOTHING, not individual or collective safety, not property, not even our lives, are more important than the greater good and most precious good of all…

      …True Liberty and Justice for all.

      The sooner the majority of the people of this late great American lands can truly understand that, the sooner we can stop the Totalitarian enslavement.

  • UVOR June 17, 2016, 10:34 pm

    Presently anyone under a stalking order or even suspected of misdemeanor domestic violence is a prohibited person. Anyone in possession of a marijuana medical card is prohibited as well. None of these types of persons need to be convicted or even charged in some cases to lose their 2A rights. I have yet to hear of any outrage over these restrictions from the NRA, yet they choose to step up for terrorists?

    • Mahatma Muhjesbude June 18, 2016, 12:58 pm

      Uvar, I have been outraged about this for a long time. I’ve written outrageous articles about it in various venues to express my outrage and hope that others follow into a proactive political solution. I’ve just donated a hundred bucks to this right on target NAGR organization.

  • MarkinLA June 17, 2016, 9:09 pm

    Yeah, the NRA’s position is problematic but it has to deal with political reality. We have to get somebody in office who will pull back the stupidity in these bills and it certainly isn’t Hillary. You are always making a deal with the devil when you allow stupid bills to go forward and hope to fix them later. You always have to be on guard that the fixes will never be made. You also have to be aware of how the largely stupid public feels about these hot-button issues.

    • Old Clockguy June 18, 2016, 10:47 am

      Perfect example of this type of “word game”, the original Obama-Care medical bill, a mountain of paper so huge that the advice of so many from so few was to “pass the bill and we will read it later and filter things out” to paraphrase. Has that “reading” ever taken place with any amount of focus or priority on placing emphasis on the importance of all the pork ride-alongs that were tacked onto this bill or, for that metter, the real meaning of the obtuse wording of many parts of the bill itself? ……. “You like your doctor, you keep your doctor”, easy to say, more difficult to find legal protections in that law to ensure that happening. (I know of doctors who would rather take in Medicare/Medicaid patients than those who are covered by “Obama-care”!)

      I have heard absolutely NOTHING since that joke of a bill tagged as “Affordable Health Care” was originally drawn up and passed into law. It’s the level of fine tuning of political bull shit that we have allowed our national representatives to evoke in lieu of Parliamentary Procedure, an open plan to discuss, determine the issues if any, and come up with a logical plan to move our government ahead on anything needing attention and focus.

      WE, the voters, have allowed this transition into a fantasy type of legal system where the laws are so bastardized as to form and meaning that they obliterate the very issues they were drawn up and passed to address! If you sit back and let the “other guy” take care of the issues, sure enough they will do exactly that and to their own end results and benefits and not the results and benefits of those whose voted put them where they can do such harm to our legal system and our government. If all Americans take a passive role in maintaining some form of control on who we allow to rule us and what they use for criteria to pass those “rules”, then we have nobody else to blame. It seems that, to many, it is more of an inconvenience to vote once in awhile than it is to tear oneself away from the Gameboys and the smart phones and all the other techy doo dads which seem to occupy many lives today. I am old enough to remember passing people on the street on a sunny afternoon, strangers to each other, and simply smiling or saying Hi to those who look like they need a little boost in their daily routine. It was such a minor thing but it was what we DID back then. Now you are lucky if you aren’t bumped into by someone who is trying to walk and text and isn’t even glancing up to see if they are still heading in the right direction to get where they want to go. I am so glad to be in my senior years, for I was raised in an age where maybe we didn’t have all the luxuries available to people today but we had respect, both for ourselves and for others, and it wasn’t too much of an effort to be friendly and make a small effort to put a smile on someone else’s face.

  • Brad F June 17, 2016, 8:43 pm

    None of the terrorists held in Guantanamo have been tried or convicted of a crime, so we should not deny their 2A rights, right? Same goes for the Orlando shooter? What kind of paranoid moron opposes restricting the right of suspected terrorists to purchase firearms? If you are a law-abiding American, you have nothing to worry about. If your parents moved here from Afghanistan and you have been interviewed three times by the FBI, I think it’s safe to say that you should not be permitted to purchase a firearm.

    • El Alemain June 18, 2016, 1:26 pm

      None of the terrorists held in Guantanamo are US citizens. Therefore they do not have the same constitutionally protected rights.

      If you are a law abiding American and you’re attempting to purchase a firearm, you are a terrorist according to those in the Hilary camp. Seeing as how she will most likely win in November, there is plenty to worry about. You’d better wake up.

    • Mark N. June 20, 2016, 12:34 am

      He was a US citizen born and raised here. He was interviewed two or three times by the FBI who found no reason to suspect that he had an affiliation with any terrorist group. Moreover, even if he was a self-made jihadi, he had, under the First Amendment, the right to believe whatever he wanted, and to say pretty much whatever he wanted (except conspiring with others to commit a crime) as long as he did not act to commit a crime. If buying a gun is a predicate act in furtherance of a conspiracy to commit a felonly, then we are all conspirators. The simle fact is that until he entered that bar, he had never been arrested or charged with a crime, had passed multiple background checks by his employer and the federal government, and more background checks to purchase two firearms. he had a license to open carry a weapon during the course and scope of his employment. There was absolutely nothing, nada zilch that would support a finding of probable cause on which a warrant could issue for his detention or arrest. And you think that he should have been deprived of his rights, rights guaranteed against government interference, on the mere suspicion that he might one day decide to do something abut his apparent belief that homosexuals are sinners who must die? Our criminal justice system has never permitted the government to act in such a fashion, and there is all the reason in the world to prevent it from seizing that power now.

  • Cody M June 17, 2016, 5:29 pm

    “Let’s bring back McCarthyism” said no rational US citizen, ever. Make a criminal case or refrain from infringing rights, no other option is acceptable.

  • Ralph June 17, 2016, 3:29 pm

    Ok then. Lets round up all the suspected terrorists and get on with it then! Deport or charge them. WTF is the problem with that unless we don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings?

    • Mark N. June 20, 2016, 12:37 am

      You cannot deport a citizen. He is already where you would deport him to.

  • Seth June 17, 2016, 1:28 pm

    Just imagine how this proposal would be viewed by the liberals if it was being applied to any other of our constitutional rights…

    1A – any person on the no-fly list is prohibited from attending a mosque, church or synagogue or practicing any religion or communicating with any member of an established religion
    2A – as proposed
    3A – any person on the no-fly list may be ordered by the government to house a DHS officer to monitor their activity
    4A – no warrant required for any law enforcement agency to conduct a search of someone on the no-fly
    5A – a person on the no-fly may be tried in a secret court
    6A – as stated for 5A
    7A – as stated for 5A
    8A – no bail for persons on the no-fly who have been charged and await secret trial
    9A – suspended for no-fly list to allow above regardless of State opposition
    10A – Federal powers supercede all state powers with regard to any person on the no-fly list

    That should about cover it!

    • Erick June 17, 2016, 4:35 pm

      Very well articulated! I’ve used examples like this to try and explain the dangers of the “logic” behind these dangerous policies. Seems to get the point across for those with a functioning brain – now we just need more people in our society with a brain!
      Regards!

  • Gary Schaefer June 17, 2016, 12:53 pm

    Instead of using the “Watch” List how about we just restrict the 2A to Citizens only?
    Currently any NON-Citizen here or a Refugee can buy a gun legally and without renouncing their foreign allegiances.
    Considering all the Syrian refugees Obama wants to bring here and how poorly the FBI seems to do with background checks this seem to me to be a prudent move. The FBI looked at the Orlando shooter 2x and cleared him. He traveled to suspect countries and look what he did. The “Watch” list didn’t catch him either. So far most of these terrorists have been home grown ie “citizens”, but it sure seem to me it will just be a matter of time until we import one or two especially if they can legally buy guns once here.
    https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/federal-firearms-licensees/ffl-tip-sheet-for-non-u.s.-citizens-purchasing-firearms-1

    • Bill June 17, 2016, 6:29 pm

      Anyone who is not a citizen of the USA should NOT have 2nd amendment privileges , neither should they be allowed to vote.

    • Mahatma Muhjesbude June 18, 2016, 1:45 pm

      Actually, Gary, more than ‘one or two’ are being imported by now, with all the hundreds of able bodied young Islamic State males being ‘slipped’ in weekly without vetting through religious charity manifestations. With all expert assumption verifying that there is doubtless many potential ISIS guerilla fighters imbedding themselves in the U.S. daily. Not counting those coming across the border on foot.

      The problem is that we have to go back and ‘re-focus’ the picture. The undeniable proven FACT of any and ALL gun control is that it absolutely never has been successful, and never will WORK, ever. Even in totally ‘Gun Free’ countries like Candada and Australia and the UK In true indisputabe proof beyond contention-unless you are a lying Totalitarian sycophant– abridging any fragment of the 2nd/A Always provides deleterious Fascist confiscation creep and pragmatically cause more crime against citizens because of the associate restrictions on their rightful legacy to possess firearms.

      WHY ARE THEY EVEN HAVING ANY LEGISLATIVE DEBATES SOMETHING SO TRANSPARENTLY TREASONOUS AND ABSURD AS GUN CONTROL?

      WHY DON’T WE TELL OUR CONGRESS AND SENATE THIS WEEK TO CHANGE THE DISCUSSION TO HOW QUICKLT WE CAN BYPASS THE POTUS AND DECLARE WAR ON THE ISLAMIC STATE IN SYRIA AND IRAQ?

      AND DECIMATE THEM INTO NON-EXISTANCE.

      There can be NO ISIS Supporters, if ISIS does not exist anymore?

  • Don June 17, 2016, 12:21 pm

    So – I think what is missing in the comments is this: if they (the govt.) are now naming home grown terrorists as veterans, militia members, and other similar groups like you know, Christians – then to disarm the American people you put all those folks (most are gun owners) on the “terrorist watchlist” and your rights disappear – now they can show up at your house and demand your firearms. Sure, you can shoot back – but what if they picked up your kids from school and used them to threaten you? What then? Kids grown and on their own? got grand kids? got a wife? If this is allowed – it will affect much more than the folks the “terrorist watch list” was created for.

    • Mahatma Muhjesbude June 18, 2016, 1:55 pm

      And that, Don, is exactly ‘Their’ plan. All they need is a few more anti-Constitutional laws punishable by permanent individual gun bans or Fiat administrative power ‘mandates’ like the illigal ‘No Fly’ List, and they’ll implement the ‘tactics’ you described above to do ‘confiscation checks’. Which was one of the purposes of practice for the Jade Helm exercises.

      That’s why it’s more important right now for everyone to forget about bullshit bandaid fixes, which is just a distraction mind control re-direct away from the real problem.

      Which is to Ban ALL gun control laws by repealing current ones and prohibiting new ones.

  • Reality4U June 17, 2016, 11:50 am

    1. AT WHAT TIME IS MASS MURDER OK? It has been illegal forever and guess what- criminals still kill.

    Guns are just a scapegoat and political football for headlines.

    2. This A-hole was investigated directly TWICE by the FBI and again at each gun purchase. THE GOVERNMENT APPROVED HIS GUN PURCHASES. SO more laws are needed?

    3. So weary of politicals attacking the law abiding citizen when criminals need to be punished and not set free.

    4. Had ONE..yes just ONE security guard or armed citizen been present this would have turned out a lot differently.

    5. Criminals prey on the unprotected.. It is their way

    6. Lawbreakers by definition do not follow laws.. Nuff said.

    • Bernie June 19, 2016, 6:24 pm

      There WAS an armed security there, an off duty police officer, who DID engage the shooter and the shooter then went into the club. Going through a controlled environment shooter drill, a person still makes mistakes. Translate that to a crowded dark night club in total panic, and I can almost assure you the results would not have turned out like everyone wants to believe.

  • Freedom Loving American June 17, 2016, 11:48 am

    On the surface, it sounds like a good idea. But, once you think about it for more than a minute, you see what an incredibly bad idea it is. Simple fact is people end up on the “no fly list” by mistake or petty grievance all the time:
    * Two people with the same name, but the one not under suspicion is placed on the list.
    * Two people feuding, so an anonymous tip is called in and someone ends up on the list.
    * A government official trying to make a name for himself/herself (or simply to abuse those who oppose) adds names to the list.

    And, you may be “on the list” and not even know it. In a perfect world, I will never fly again (flew over 100,000 miles per year for many years for business purposes – now, if I can’t drive there, I’m not that interested in going), so how will I even know I’m on the list if I don’t try to fly somewhere? (I don’t know if the all-knowing, all-seeing government is under any obligation to tell me…)

    And, there is no guarantee (in fact, it’s normally NOT the case) that the individual will know they are even suspected of something. It is common practice for law enforcement agencies to intentionally withhold that information from suspects (and this is not an indictment of that practice – it’s just plain common sense).

    Unless you have been convicted of a crime that means you’ve lost your civil rights (normally, a felony), you should not be denied your Second Amendment rights.

    Otherwise, we are allowing the liberal left to SHOVE us down that slippery slope we all talk about, and it will just be the first of many freedoms we will lose.

    • Leon Davilo June 17, 2016, 1:07 pm

      the gun laws of our land are made vary well written , if there is the slightest doubt about one who has had any type of conviction no permit or any type of gun licences should be issued to that person, you can take every gun out of this country the u.s.a and will still have in this country the u.s.a and you will still have more guns in the country then you took out. everyone thinks this type of killing has just started its been around since the time of Adam and Eve and kept on growing when the population kept growing ,the shooting in Florida when you have only one security you do not make rounds he stays at the door that is where the trouble comes in and with a crowd of over 250 you must have more security that is the owners fault ,there is always trouble in places that serve liquor more then places that do not. the owner of the gay night club and security knew the guy was a trouble maker a still let him in the club.and the killers wife she did not want this to happen she wanted to tell the police and she knew that if he found out he would beat her so bad the pain alone would be hell, the weapon that got in the club was because of lack of security and untrained security.

  • Erick June 17, 2016, 11:48 am

    Oh, I’m sure our highly respected, moral and highly ethical politicians – along with our hard-working bureaucrats – would NEVER use a secret list for political purposes. Nah….never…..
    Since Obama constantly talks about who the real enemy is – militant Islamists – and never inserts some other excuse like “workplace violence”, “gun violence” or whatever else, he knows exactly who the bad guys are! He and others like him would NEVER go after political dissenters like us! I mean, he single-handedly won the war in the Middle East AND killed Osama bin Laden! What a fantastic Command in Chief!

    Anyone remember that old Dep. of Homeland Security report (2008? 2009?) which stated Tea-Party members, returning vets, flat-tax proponents, Audit-the-Fed people, Ron Paul supporters, etc. were possible ‘Domestic Terrorists’….yeah, they weren’t serious about that. Just a joke everyone! Move along, nothing to see here!

    Secret lists, stripping away people’s means of self-defense, striking away Constitutional rights illegally, no way of knowing who or WHY someone is on a list, secret courts (FISA), NSA warrantless spying/tapping/monitoring, more and more militarized police, the very definition of WHO and WHAT a terrorist is can change into whatever the current regime wants it to be….this doesn’t look bad at all! What could go wrong? Am I right?

    On the serious side – how in the hell would a list such as this do any good if our government CAN’T DEFINE WHO THE ENEMY IS? NO ONE should support this list. It will be used against We the People regardless of your political beliefs, and not Them the (real) Terrorists. Mark my words.

    • Mahatma Muhjesbude June 18, 2016, 2:10 pm

      Erick, check out the latest egregious totalitarian police state progress by the FBI. They recently petitioned the State Dept with a new proposal to implement anexpansive face recognition technology in their National finger print and Biometric Data base. the time to end the proposal debate was up last week o n June 6th, i believe. And they specifically want to keep this anti-Constittutionl violation a SECRET where they do not have to confirm a citizen’s request to see if they’re in the face recognition data base!

      The real scary part of this new data-base is that it is going to use some new technology tha takes the old aphorism. “…The eyes are the windows of the soul” To unimaginable levels of privacy intrusion and slippery slope rights violations.

      I’m still checking to see if this got approved. When I find that out, I’ll reveal more.

      Maybe that’s why the FBI is so…what were they saying…understaffed and overwhelmed that they couldn’t keep a closer eye on this ISIS soldier attacking on our soil? They were too busy working on setting up an expanded citizen spy system?

      Instead of fighting the enemby ISIS on their own soil.

  • Phred June 17, 2016, 11:37 am

    Don’t worry. The government will take care of all our problems and keep us safe. We just need to raise taxes so they can do the job better. Just trust them.

    Ps. If the above appeals to you…There is a bridge near Brooklyn for sale on the cheap!

  • cajun raven June 17, 2016, 11:30 am

    Leave it up to the gun dealer to decide if they want to sell to a “suspected” terrorists. Having more information about who is buying a firearm is better than not.

  • Frank June 17, 2016, 11:28 am

    I do not trust the government any more or less then I trust the terriosts.

  • Ringo Lapua June 17, 2016, 10:53 am

    Blaming the GUNS for the Orlando attack is like blaming the alligator for being hungry and attacking that poor child, rather than blaming the FBI for letting that crazy gay muslim terrorist off the hook and Disney for not posting signs and educating their guests. The USA is rotting from the inside out with too many ignorant people led by corrupt, lying news people.

    • Phred June 17, 2016, 11:38 am

      Bravo !

    • Cam June 17, 2016, 4:58 pm

      Winner, winner, lobster dinner!

  • Steve June 17, 2016, 10:52 am

    Regardless of the perceived importance at the time in history, the rights that are instrumental with the US being the US cannot be violated, or the whole premise of who we are fails. The minute, the second, this happens, where anyone is subjected to discrimination (in this case in purchasing a firearm) in a process where we are guilty until proven innocent, we stop being the country that the Bill of Rights was written to establish and that the Constitution was written to protect.

    Best thing for a terrorist to do is to state pro terrorist things, be on the list, have an FBI interview, and then once taken off the list, do what ever they want. This is the process that is proposed and we will all pay the price again and again until we have some common sense approaches to violence control which, our government officials fail to understand.

  • Leighton Cavendish June 17, 2016, 10:49 am

    So…to find out if you are on the list..you need to try and buy a gun…or try to fly somewhere.
    If you are not immediately approved for either…you are probably on one of the lists.
    That about sums it up.

  • Chris Baker June 17, 2016, 10:34 am

    It boggles my mind that ANYONE, other than a liberal progressive, would consider this a good idea. No person should EVER be deprived of any of their rights without due process.

    This bill would give Loretta Lynch the power to take away anyone’s rights she doesn’t like. That would be any and all conservatives. I suspect that as a life member of the NRA I’d be on that list in a heartbeat and so would everyone who’s ever posted a comment here or on any pro-second amendment site. Would anyone here like for her to have that power over you?

    This is another giant step into a police state and we’ve already gone way to far down that road.

    • Chris Baker June 17, 2016, 10:41 am

      By the way… The FBI had numerous complaints about this Orlando shooter. People complained that he had bomb making supplies and talked a lot about killing people for Allah. They let him go free and uncharged.

      I think they were hoping for something just like this episode to happen and the lefties couldn’t be happier that they now have another excuse to chip away at our rights.

  • Infidel7.62 June 17, 2016, 9:45 am

    Yesterday the muslim in charge of Homeland Security told the press conservatives were more of threat to the US than his brother muslims. This is what happens when you let PC rule. The foxes are guarding the hen house.

  • Mike Rentfrow June 17, 2016, 9:33 am

    I like the philosophy behind this idea but it can not and will never work. The same thing has been done to hundreds of thousands of the most well respected veterans of the last ten years of war for things so simple as asking for a bit of help balancing a budget. They get labeled as mentally defective and can no longer even defend themselves and thier families. This is a suicidal bill for our freedoms and way of life . So we start with the no fly list that is proven to be flawed and corrupted beyond repair, then its well lets add motorcyclists, and veterans with PTSD then who me and you?

  • Infidel7.62 June 17, 2016, 9:31 am

    I would also add if you are not a US citizen you can’t buy a gun, green card or not. If you want the full rights and privileges of being an American then become a citizen.

    • Mark N. June 20, 2016, 12:40 am

      That is not as easy as it sounds, and in fact takes years to accomplish, even for those who are highly motivated to become citizens.

  • 4America June 17, 2016, 9:29 am

    absolutely not. with today’s government everyone who has ever said anything negative about the government would then be on the (shit) list.

  • Altiods June 17, 2016, 9:27 am

    Too may ways for this to be used as a weapon by the left…

    Appeals process? Sure, after you spend $50k for a lawyer you get your gun rights back, maybe
    Who and what defines a “terrorist”? Is that definition “anyone who happens to disagree with the present leftist administration or with any leftist ideology including global warming”?
    What happens when a so-called computer glitch automatically ties your background check to the addition of your name on the “no-fly” list? Does it ever get fixed? Don’t bet on it.

  • Andy June 17, 2016, 9:06 am

    I don’t have a problem of a suspected terrorist losing their 2nd Amendment Rights if there’s STRONG evidence of them being associated with our enemies. As far as that goes, any proof that said person is affiliated with known terror cells, whether foreign or domestic should have their citizenship revoked….which would include their Constitutional Rights. However, as previously stated, there would need to be strong, undeniable evidence to make such a case. Simply having the same or similar name as a person on the FBI watch list shouldn’t be grounds for this action.

    A lot of innocent people on the ‘no-fly’ list have no business being on it. This is where the DHS, FBI, and other anti-terror gov’t agencies need to tighten up and improve their data, surveillance, or whatever else they use to determine who deserves to be on or not on the list. Legitimate, law abiding citizens should NEVER be on any type of watch list. THAT is where they need to focus their intelligence so that the real people of concern end up on the proper lists.

    The problem with waiting for people on the FBI’s watch list to have a conviction…it may be too late. These are the ones that are making it on the news committing these terror attacks on our country. I every ‘terror attack’ since the Boston Marathon bombing, all the suspects were the subject to SOMEBODY’s investigation at some point. Yet these gov’t agencies doing the investigating get too lax or decide to prematurely close the case…and it ends up being a deadly mistake.

    ALL THAT SAID, the AR-15 rifle, regardless of manufacturer or variance is NOT the problem the government needs to be concerned with. You could fill a NFL football stadium with law abiding AR-15 owners…and committing a terror attack or mass shooting using theirs has never crossed their mind. This President’s administration keeps putting the blame on the TOOLS, and not the fools. All these resources and energy wasted on banning semi-auto rifles would be far more beneficial identifying mentally disturbed individuals or suspected terrorists.

    • Praharin June 17, 2016, 10:00 am

      If there is “strong evodence” they should be charged and tried. If that isn’t happening, rights are rights.

      • Mark N. June 20, 2016, 1:00 am

        I second that motion. In jail under charges, or convicted and imprisoned; otherwise leave my rights alone. There is no need whatsoever to water down the Constitution and the Bill of Rights over a few terrorist wannabees, and too many good reasons to prevent them from being flushed down the toilet. The refrain that restrictions on fundamental 2A rights are “in the public interest in providing safety for citizens” is too slippery of a slope to start down now. California already has started down that path, and with the Supreme Court in flux, the likelihood is that our rights are going to be gone for good, or at least for longer than I expect to live.

  • Phil June 17, 2016, 8:37 am

    If the Justice Department can label anyone a terrorist then we are all in trouble. I’ve been labeled a terrorist simply because I’m a veteran and a Christian. Wouldn’t be a far stretch to be on that list.

    • Tim June 17, 2016, 8:57 am

      Phil I could not agree more. I am a Christian also and for those in government offices whose world view is different than mine, it is a very small step for them to put me on that list. There must be due process for everyone. I like John Cornyn’s (Senator from Texas) bill that requires due process to avoid such an eventuality. That sensible bill is also backed by the NRA. We have already seen abuse of power from elements of this administration (IRS) in targeting conservative non-profit groups, e.g. those whose political views differ from the party in power and with very little consequence to those responsible (Learner I think is since resigned but she was suspended with pay for months before hand).

  • Chief June 17, 2016, 8:34 am

    This should really put a CHILL thru gun owners . Lets all call and stop this now .We are being sold as mentioned earlier the Patriot act all over again and soon our rights will be gone.

  • Rick_H June 17, 2016, 8:00 am

    If we, as responsible gun owners do not police our own ranks, I’m afraid we stand to lose all our rights. There are too many nut cases out there running around with an AR, a hunting rifle or a pistol waiting to kill innocent human beings! One of these scumbags is just hoping that the next mass shootings leads to the seizure of all guns! A responsible gun owner locks up his guns so kids can’t get to them, a responsible gun lobby should be doing the same thing! I’m not with the liberal crowd that says a certain gun is responsible for mass murder, but I do believe we, myself included, better start policing the ranks of gun buyers and prevent the next Omar Mateen from purchasing a weapon! You can talk about due process all you want, but I would rather see someone be denied a purchase than to see one more innocent child blown away because some nut case that should never have owned a firearm in the first place. If the NRA refuses to budge on this issue, I fear we are facing far worse restrictions when the next Omar Mateen commits mass homicide. You better act now NRA, or when Hillary Clinton and Elizabeth Warren are elected, it will be to late.

    Rick_H –NRA Member and gun owner

    • Doug S June 17, 2016, 8:52 am

      Sorry Rick I hope I am reading you wrong. The Constitution always public opinion secondary, emotional hyperbole makes for bad legislation. Letting the government take away a God given right with no due process is not only a bad precedent for our gun rights but all our rights. You need to man up and face the real enemy, those that seek to enslave us one piece of legislation at a time. They will never let a crisis go to waste and we should call them out for the liars that they are.

      • Pontificant June 17, 2016, 10:04 am

        Doug S > YES!
        Rick H > No.

        I appreciate the wish to get along with folks about gun control and all the “reasonable” arguments to police our ranks, etc. But the gun control folks objective is to get rid of guns entirely. They will and have lied in order to do it. They cannot be trusted, as they have no honor. Their method for coping with the world is to lie, steal and cheat to get their way. Instead of using tools to protect themselves and their loved ones, they use personal attacks, intimidation, shady deals, lies and tricks and they think it’s hilarious when we fall for it. They cannot ever be trusted.

        Understand, the anti-gun control crowd is inside the wire. They have crossed the 2nd Amendment line a long time ago and much like Islamic terrorists, they live amongst us and we knowingly tolerate it. We tolerate their behavior, in order to “get along”; because we have other things to deal with and don’t want to be bothered. We tolerate them, because we respect their right to have an opinion different from ours. Keep in mind, they do not respect your right. Every time they call for any kind of limit on the right to bear arms, they are telling you that they do not respect your rights.

        I don’t know how much longer this should be tolerated. This current campaign against the 2nd Amendment has the globalists behind it, with the their small arms treaty, signed by Kerry and waiting for ratification by Congress. I’m not sure how many sport games we are going to watch, malls we are going to walk around or television shows we are going to binge watch, before we are going to get off the couch and push back. I’m not sure how many children we are going to raise weak and feeble, how many victims we are going to treat as heroes or how many terrorists we are going to import, before we are going to put our foot down and tell those who show so little disregard for our rights, to shut up or get beaten down. Because these folks won’t stop, they are bullies. Not physically big tough bullies, but they are bullies and the only way to deal with a bully is to punch them hard, beat them down and teach them to respect their betters.

        By supporting the 2nd Amendment, we are the guardians of the rights for everyone else. It’s time we stand up, as the champions we are and tell these sniveling little nitwits to shut up and sit down and behave like the good little, emotional children they are.

    • Doug S June 17, 2016, 9:33 am

      Sorry Rick I hope I am reading you wrong. The Constitution always, emotional hyperbole makes for bad legislation. Letting the government take away a God given right with no due process is not only a bad precedent for our gun rights but all our rights. If you think they will stop there you are naive at best. The black rifle today all firearms eventually. You need to man up and face the real enemy, those that seek to enslave us one piece of legislation at a time. Get involved write op-eds, support pro gun candidates not only with money but time as well challenge misinformation with truth. We must fight them at every turn and point out the fallacious nature of their argument. They will never let a crisis go to waste and we should call them out for the liars that they are and remind them of the lives saved by by good guys with guns many times by it’s shear presence.

  • tom taylor June 17, 2016, 7:41 am

    Not sure if folks know, but you don’t have to be a convicted criminal to lose you ability to buy or use a firearm….you simply have to be accused or indicted….not convicted. There are many innocent individuals who are accused who are ramrodded into the judicial system, lose their second amendment rights and have not been convicted of anything. The crime does not have to be that serious….simply cheating on your taxes can do it. So, putting potential terrorists on this list is a no brainer…the FBI has a history of framing people they are after who cannot afford the millions of dollars necessary to defend themselves consequently pleading out just to end the abuse. Guilty, not usually, it’s part of the corrupt plea bargaining system that we have in this country. There is no such thing as innocent until pleading guilty…that concept is a sham.

  • Michael Saari June 17, 2016, 7:25 am

    People look to government for answers when governments the problem. – Ronald Reagan.

    • William Wenzel June 17, 2016, 9:37 am

      Jingo, nothing more.

  • David Rogers June 17, 2016, 7:05 am

    If one is known to be involved in terrorist activities, why would they be out walking the street in the first place?

    • Jbizzle June 17, 2016, 9:38 am

      Well, it happens every day…

  • Jackpine June 17, 2016, 6:48 am

    Considering everyone reading this column is a marked man already, this makes me very nervous. It truly would be a toe-in-the-door moment, the beginning of the end of gun rights in America So, big fan of due process.
    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/feb/21/dhs-intelligence-report-warns-of-domestic-right-wi/

    • Chris Baker June 17, 2016, 10:48 am

      The beginning was way back over 150 years ago, when they first made laws restricting gun purchases or ownership to blacks. It made a huge step forward when machine guns were made illegal to manufacture for private citizens. Every permit requirement, every restriction on where or when you could carry is another step. Every time you have to ask permission (background checks) is another step forward for them. Every time they outlaw a gun based on looks or magazine capacity is another step forward.

      All of the above are steps in our faces as they tromp all over our civil rights.

  • Cam S June 17, 2016, 6:38 am

    Being what our Government has become, I trust none of them. Trump is meeting with the NRA. It will be interesting what comes out of this. He has repeatedly said that he is assembling skilled experts around him to fix these messes that our politicians have made, this will be a telling indication of this. A blanket desision by Congress will NOT fix this! He and both his sons have a long history of support for the 2nd Amendment, have CCL’s and they do. I know we HAVE to get a handle on stopping the terrorist coming into our country every day while supporting our legal gun owners 100%. The individual gun owners of our country will be our FIRST defense against the national terrorist problem heading our way. The FBI had maltiple heads up to stop that idiot that shot up the nightclub in Orlando and they didn’t do it, mainly due to the policies of the failed Obama administration.

  • Boutefeu June 17, 2016, 6:36 am

    With our politically correct government, every day is Opposite Day. Islam is the “religion of peace” and responsible citizens are the villains. The government is out of control already and certainly does not need to extend its powers against us.

  • Lui Pestana June 17, 2016, 6:18 am

    Not just NO but HELL NO. Especially the governments loose definition that includes anyone with survival food and survival skills. I think maybe if you are suspected, the government gets an extra 2 weeks background check and you get to respond specifically to any specific instances, That happened to me the last time I bought a gun, The state had just began expanded background checks and one instance that I had seen a psychologist many years ago popped up. I was contacted and notified of the problem and was told from where the record came from. I investigated, and they checked and it was once when I had spoken to a psychologist as part of a pain management program. When they confirmed via letter that that it was not for a psychotic episode, my permit was approved.

  • Screwed in Fla. June 17, 2016, 5:48 am

    I’ve got an idea. How about we pass a law that anyone who is the subject of an active FBI investigation NOT BE ALLOWED TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT. When we pass this law (and enforce it) THEN come talk to me about passing any other laws infringing on God given rights of all persons.

    • Chief June 17, 2016, 8:29 am

      Amen

    • Cyrus June 17, 2016, 10:51 am

      Outstanding idea!

  • Norman Todd June 17, 2016, 4:49 am

    Beware: Dianne Feinstein has labeled all veterans as mentally Ill and Obama has labeled Christians as terrorists.
    The purpose of the second amendment is to protect citizens from a government gone out of control..
    Norm

    • Chief June 17, 2016, 8:30 am

      True,

  • Boba Fett June 16, 2016, 10:39 pm

    I’m also going to say that every American needs to watch the video on this page.

  • Will Drider June 16, 2016, 10:36 pm

    Please note there are TWO totally different Lists: the No Fly List we are referencing and the Terrorist Watch List. Many people and the media use both interchangeable but thay are distinctly different. Then there is TIDE which is basically a consolidation.
    So how many terrorists are in the U.S.? 100? Lets get wild and say 10,000! Well there are 1.1 Million U.S. citizenship or resident aliens in the U.S. on the Lists. How many do we arrest each month one or two maybe and I’m glad that’s happening. I hope the disparity in these numbers is clear. Please research case of abuse with assignments to the no fly list. It has been a used as a vindictive Gov tool just like that of the IRS but the no fly list has less safeguards and oversight. A U.S. Senator was put on the no fly list! He probably didn’t have too much trouble getting off but not so for the average Joe.
    The bottom line here is that some people are willing to give up Rights and Freedoms without due process for a false sense of security. This is no different then the basic and ever present foundation of every anti gun issue ever presented: surrender XXXX to improve public safety and reduce violence. Is this not the same as. “If it saves just on childs life” but a larger scale? My answer NO, its not worth it!

    • D.K. June 17, 2016, 6:37 am

      I recall reading a statement made by one of our founding fathers, (don’t recall which one at the moment) but, the statement said something to the effect that “Those who would sacrifice freedoms for security deserve neither.” It was true then and is true now.

      • Blasted Cap June 17, 2016, 8:20 am

        Ben Franklin. Just think, if they were alive today, most of the founding fathers would be on the terrorist watch list themselves.

  • Boba Fett June 16, 2016, 9:29 pm

    The way I see it, this could mean one of two things:
    1. The right to purchase a gun in this country is about to fall in to the hands of bureaucrats, which, after a few years, would mean the Second Amendment will go the way of the Fourth Amendment, which is to say, it will be – gone -. Remember the Patriot Act? After that passed, it only took a few short years before the 4th Amendment was completely and totally destroyed. Why? Because we handed our freedom over to the Federal Government. We put our right to privacy in the hands of a federal bureaucracy, and they destroyed it. Behind closed doors. Flat out. That’s what happened, and rest assured, the exact same thing will happen to the 2nd Amendment if gun purchases are denied to people on one of these “secret lists.” You think Bloomberg and Feinstein won’t be foaming at the mouth, doing everything in their power to expand the criteria for these lists to make them as broad as possible? And once thousands of innocent, non-violent people are being “investigated,” you think they won’t do everything in their power to ensure that these “investigations” drag out as long as humanly possible? Think again. That’s exactly what will happen. Make no mistake.
    -or-
    2. This is the red herring Bloomberg hopes it isn’t, and the NRA and Trump are just posturing to make it look like Trump has the clout to bring the big, bad NRA to the table for negotiation. If the malleable, emotional public is crying for gun control, and they see that Trump seems to be able to have some sort of effect on the NRA that the Democrats never could, it will make Trump look like a SAINT. And THAT… will sway voters.

    I hope it’s number 2. I pray it’s number 2. If it’s not, we’re all fucked.

  • DRAINO June 16, 2016, 6:18 pm

    Well, if they know so much already then a list is really irrelevant…and there should be no “suspects” since they apparently already know if you are a “terrorist” or not. Therefore proceed with due process or cease and desist. And if you can’t figure it out after 13 interviews, then someone needs to loose their job. Seriously!

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