Ep. 1 Should I Shoot? When Lethal Force Can Be Used

Should I Shoot 2Editor’s Note: The following is a post from Sammy Reese,  a former Marine Corps Artillery Officer and retired police officer from California. He is a part-time range master for the police department he retired from as well as a life-long martial artist and combatives coach.

I’ve spent the better part of the last 20 years teaching cops, military and private citizens how to stay alive in a sometimes not-so-nice world. In the beginning of my firearms instruction career, I was pretty much focused on the mechanics of shooting and the hardware. Over the years, I have found myself focusing just as heavily on the software involved in personal defense for both law enforcement and responsibly armed Americans. By “software,” I mean using the most powerful weapon we posses — the human brain. All the best gear combined with inaccurate knowledge of deadly force laws, poor mindset and poor training is, quite frankly, a disaster waiting to happen.

But accurate knowledge of deadly force laws, proper mindset and quality training–combined with the best gear available–could mean the difference between getting home safely or not getting home at all.

In the beginning, I want to be hands-on, as do all new gun owners. They want to learn to shoot, and “Can you help me?” is the question I hear most. I always answer with, “I sure can, but we need to cover a few other things as well.” I won’t get into everything I ask right now, but one of the first things I do ask is what they know about the laws when it comes to using deadly force in self-defense. (It applies to the use of, not the method; I will go much deeper into the actual application of deadly force in future columns.)

I spend a lot of time traveling around the U.S., and since I’m a retired police officer, I’m covered by HR218, which is nationwide concealed carry. It’s nice to be armed wherever I go, but that doesn’t mean I don’t have to do my homework before I go so I know the laws of each state. For those with multi-state CCW, knowing the laws in each state is a must.

Since I reside in California, I’ll use the laws we have here to shed some light on the question of when I’m justified in using deadly force to defend myself.

California Penal Code Section 9.32. Deadly Force in Defense of Person.

This is the most important section for those who carry firearms for defensive purposes. The Penal Code here (and I would guess in most states) was written by lawyers and can, therefore, be very confusing. To most laypersons, Shakespeare’s iambic pentameter is easier to follow.

I prefer to keep things as simple as possible so the good guys here know when they can use deadly force; we use some very simplified verbiage that is the same as used when teaching law enforcement and for the most part, this applies across the board, even in extremely anti-gun states.

Deadly Force is authorized/legal:

  • When in fear of imminent death or great bodily injury (GBI).
  • When in fear of imminent death or GBI of another.
  • To stop an armed fleeing felon who has committed murder or GBI and, if not stopped, is believed will continue to kill or inflict GBI upon others.

This last one was traditionally more directed at law enforcement officers, but with school attacks, church attacks and other rapid mass murders being a more immediate reality these days, it bears mention.

Another very important part of various states’ penal codes covers the use of deadly force in the home — more commonly known as the “Castle Doctrine.” Some states require a homeowner to retreat, even while in his or her home, before using deadly force. (I’m amazed that California hasn’t changed the law here to make us just hand over the keys and deed to the house if requested by a crook — but I digress.)

For example, California Penal Code Section 198.5 grants a justification for deadly force inside one’s residence. If someone forces his or her way into your home and you have a “reasonable fear of death or great bodily injury,” then you would be justified in using deadly force to defend yourself or another.

The Castle Doctrine leads into some very murky water also known as “Stand Your Ground” laws. Simply, such laws mean you don’t have to run or attempt to retreat before defending yourself. The media has spun this verbiage to make it seem like those who defend themselves have almost picked the fight by not attempting to run away. In most cases, the fight you aren’t in because you saw trouble coming and went the other way is the best fight to be in, but what if you can’t avoid it? Knowing what the law is in your state or the ones you travel in can save you a lot of money — or time being locked up.

When lethal force can be employed might seem like a simple question, but when you break it down to its component parts, it can be very confusing. Whenever you elect to carry a defensive arm, it is imperative that you know and follow your state and local laws, especially when concerning any requirement to retreat before employing deadly force. As this series progresses, I’ll be shedding light on the entirety of the subject and, hopefully, get people to think about an immensely weighty topic into which they may have put precious little thought.

For more critical information on the use of deadly force and other firearms and self-defense topics, visit www.uscca.com/GunsAmerica.

{ 69 comments… add one }
  • Oldsailor65 June 3, 2016, 7:18 am

    Sorry I misspelled Kate Steinley’s name

  • Oldsailor65 June 3, 2016, 7:04 am

    Something not related to this article (EP.5) but I’m going to mention anyway.
    The other day an FBI Agents vehicle was broken into and his gun was stolen. The illegal POS that murdered Kite Steinley used a gun that was stolen from a BLM Agents vehicle. I think there is a good possibility that these weapons were left in the vehicle because the agents were going to enter a “GUN FREE ZONE”, if this is the case then it would be much safer if everyone legally allowed to CC would keep their weapons on them when entering a “GUN FREE ZONE”. I can’t think of a better place to steal a weapon than outside a GFZ.

    • Richard Berry December 26, 2016, 4:10 pm

      No such thing as gun free zones for FBI

  • BJ May 28, 2016, 12:36 am

    The time to defend yourself with lethal force? When I have no other choice.

  • steve hammill May 10, 2016, 6:15 pm

    Your top three make good sense, however, I’d ignore #2 unless it is family or someone near and dear. I’d include GBH to my dog, my livestock, or my truck too and would take responsibility for it.

  • Anon Ymous May 7, 2016, 5:30 pm

    It is not enough to say that most police are good and helpful and honest and ethical. if only .5% of policemen were bad and corrupt and would harm you for their own self-interest that would be hundreds of bad police officers walking around threatening us and endangering us. one single bad policeman or woman is too many. Until police forces Nationwide Reach not more than three bad cops in 1 Million we will continue to have too many crooked cops. Worse still good cops are pressured to protect bad cops and remain silent in the face of corruption. What I am saying here is there is no good cop that remains silent and fails to act on the face of criminality and Corruption of bad cops in his or her own police force.

    • Ray Taylor May 8, 2016, 9:41 pm

      Jackass. You’re the problem, not cops.

    • Rob May 10, 2016, 4:35 pm

      Really, what state/community did you serve? I don’t leave comments like this, but this post pissed me off. Are you a police officer? If so, did you turn in any of these bad cops? If not, where are you getting this information from? I served my country in the military and retired as a federal police officer. I don’t know any corrupt officers but I would turn them in if I did. Putting your life on the line for others is difficult thing to do, especially others like you.

      • West May 27, 2016, 2:58 am

        I agree, something like being complicit to evil if you witness it and do nothing.

      • Diggie December 23, 2016, 3:35 pm

        Ah, the kid watched too many cop movies. There’s a corrupt cop in every one, so must be like that in real life.

  • J. Dexter Smith May 7, 2016, 11:51 am

    Best rule of thumb: if they haven’t killed anyone nor stepped on the cat while running away, don’t shoot a lethal load…always have a shotgun(preferably an old rusty double barrel) loaded with shells that have the lead pellets removed and rock salt put in. The rock salt will dissolve leaving zero evidence of being shot. This method is real good on teens who go around pulling on vehicle door handles. A load of rock salt in the rear, will be remembered for years to come.
    If they won’t leave and are drunk or drugged and appear disorientated, just keep them under surveillance until the po-po get there. If they do something stupid, you may have to react with pepper spray, taser, or other non-lethals to keep them there.
    If they are agressive, e.g. forced intrusion through the front door or back door, screaming a bunch of initials at the top of their lungs, dressed in black and hollerin’ “get down” (unless they’re an all black singing group), most likely it’s the po-po with the wrong house, so lie down calmly, tossing all weaponry to the side/in front of you.
    All other intruders which appear to be aggressive in nature are fair game…light’em up!

  • DaveGinOly May 7, 2016, 1:44 am

    “To stop an armed fleeing felon who has committed murder or GBI and, if not stopped, is believed will continue to kill or inflict GBI upon others.”
    “This last one was traditionally more directed at law enforcement officers, but with school attacks, church attacks and other rapid mass murders being a more immediate reality these days, it bears mention.”

    One should stop to think why this was “traditionally directed at law enforcement officers.” Exactly why are LEOs authorized to take such action? Because we can. The cops can do very little that we can’t, because they derive their authority from us. They can shoot in the defense of others because we can. They can arrest law-breakers because we can. They are naught but citizens hired to do for us collectively what we can do ourselves individually (but are generally happy to delegate to hired help, aka “the police”).

    Principle #7 of Sir Robert Peel’s “Principles of Policing”:
    “Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.”

    • John May 23, 2016, 4:47 pm

      Dave, police have unlimited money and lawyers to defend them. You and I don’t, that’s why they can traditionally do this and we can not or shouldn’t. Its called reality and that’s where we all live. Does not make it right but you miss and that round hits a kid across the street, you get sued personally, and end up in jail or broke living under a bridge. At most a Cop will be fired and go to work for some other agency.

      • DaveGinOly May 29, 2016, 1:47 am

        What you’re saying is that it’s not lawful for cops to shoot fleeing felons (who may continue to kill or inflict GBI upon others), they just get away with it. Sorry, that’s wrong. Cops shoot such persons because it’s lawful for individual members of society to use deadly force to defend other members of society from certain criminal acts, and under certain conditions to use lethal force even against fleeing perpetrators. Situations in which cops are prosecuted for such actions usually hinge not on the lawfulness of the act per se, but the judgement of the cop (did the situation justify the act?). The same is true of the citizen, but this is true for the cop and the citizen in any use of lethal force. Almost everyone agrees that there are conditions under which it is lawful to use lethal force – people disagree about what those conditions are and some will question the judgement of anyone who uses lethal force in almost any scenario.
        I’m probably on firm ground when I presume that you agree that a citizen can use lethal force under some conditions to protect the life of a person other than himself. This is just an extension of the principle – only lethal force is being used because a reasonable person would presume that allowing a suspect to escape creates an unacceptable level of risk to other members of the community, and that the use of lethal force in the situation provides a benefit to the community that outweighs other considerations.
        Scenario: Armed citizen witnesses a shoot-out between police and a heavily armed gremlin. The gremlin kills the cops, and flees the scene in the direction of a school and is heading towards the front door. The gremlin is, at this time, not presenting a threat to anyone – but the armed citizen shoots him in the back, killing him. Justified? Lawful? That’s a judgement call, one that most would probably answer with “Yes.” So it’s very easy to imagine scenarios in which an armed citizen could use lethal force against someone who is not, at the instant he’s killed, presenting a threat to anyone, but from whom a reasonable person would perceive that such a threat was foreseeable and unacceptable, and that lethal force was required to mitigate it.
        BTW, the specific scenario you propose (hitting the kid across the street) is true even in an application of lethal force against a present threat, so it doesn’t speak against the particular situation (shooting at a fleeing suspect) being discussed. Do police get a pass in that situation? Yes, they do (and they get that pass under most conditions, not just in the “fleeing suspect” scenario). Should they? An argument could be presented from both sides of that fence – and is beyond the scope of this conversation.

    • West May 27, 2016, 3:02 am

      Damn, well said buddy! I am sharing that, thank you!

  • James C Green May 6, 2016, 10:32 pm

    If I am put in a situation where life (mine or someone else’s) is threatened, I am certainly not going to be thinking about what the law says. I am going to shoot to neutralize. True self-defense. And I’ll deal with the other aspects later. Many people have actually been killed or raped because they delayed taking action thinking this couldn’t be happening to them. And that slight delay gave the perp the chance he needed. I have been mugged and robbed by armed assailants, but unfortunately did not have my weapon on me at the time. Having experienced that I now know that I would not have hesitated to blow both of the criminals away if I had had my gun. And I now carry 100% of the time! Captain Jim Green, Navy Veteran, Former Federal Flight Deck Officer, Endowed NRA Member, University Professor

  • Anthony May 6, 2016, 8:26 pm

    All mr Reese is trying to do is inform people who don’t Know .
    So many experts on here.

  • Powder Burns May 6, 2016, 1:51 pm

    This same old tired discussion has been beat to death by every self proclaimed defense expert with a typewriter or computer and to much spare time on their hands, that’s come down the pike for as long as I can remember.

    This isn’t rocket science. The only time lethal force can be legally exercised by a civilian is if you believe your life or someone else’s is in danger….. Period.

    The key words in that statement is “you believe”…. That being said, you had better be ready to defend that belief in a Court of Law.

    • Bernie ewell May 6, 2016, 7:39 pm

      While it may be true that many people, some educated and experienced and others , wanna bee’s may have written extensively there is one caviet to this and that being there have been many newcomers to our world. Many who never picked up a gun, many who never shot a target yet alone a human being. So the advice this man gives is good for those new to gun ownership. . And your correct in peaceful environments this isn’t rocket science. But during an event whereby you come across an aggressive man or women bent on who knows what, these tools will be most beneficial to the untrained and unskilled.
      US Air Force Law Enforcemnet Specislist, Corrections Officer, Avid sportsman. 20+ yrs Martial Artist… And retired . Am I an expert? No just enjoy shooting. Have a great day.

    • Wallace Sheldon May 8, 2016, 11:00 am

      I get a real belly laugh over LEO’s using the description “CIVILIAN” to mean CITIZEN. There are two classes of law enforcement officer; Military or Civilian. If the LEO is not a Military LEO, then he’s a CIVILIAN LEO. It’s no supposed to be THEM or US. But, many of THEM think that way.

  • Eugene May 6, 2016, 11:46 am

    Although Texas has “stand your ground” , I practice backing up to maintain 25 feet between myself and a possible attacker.
    This allows my gun to stay holstered with enough time to follow the 21 foot (assailent with knife can cover 21 feet before the average victim can draw and fire) rule.

    • WarrenC May 6, 2016, 1:07 pm

      I also live in Texas and carry, but being disabled having to use either a cane or power wheelchair, I will have to like the old snapping turtle and stand my ground. I can no longer do the fancy dive and rolls we often see on the competition videos. It’s a simple case of stand and fight or give in to whatever the goblin wants. I carry a light weight Commander in 45 ACP, — as an aside John Moses Browning designed this pistol at the turn of the last century to stop Islamic jihadists in the Philippines. It worked then and still works today if I do my part.—- I use a cross-draw holster at about 11:00 as I generally sitting in a power wheelchair, covered with a light vest. I keep the pistol on my person rather than attached to the chair as I don’t want to be separated from it should I be dumped out the chair.

    • JT May 6, 2016, 1:09 pm

      What?! Do you laser range your assailant first? If you keep your weapon holstered at 25′ and unholster at 21′ what’s going on in your scenario?
      My suggestion? Unholster if you perceive a threat sooner rather than later. My dealings with CCW holders has shown me that the vast majority seem to think that they’ll have times to sort stuff out, make a rational decision and come out alive. The reality is that nothing happens according to plan when the SHTF. Prepare for the worst. Hope for the best. And remember that rats travel in packs. The assailant 25′ away most likely has friends nearby.

      • Brian Myers May 6, 2016, 8:31 pm

        I totally agree. When you feel threatened enough to think about your firearm, you should draw it from your holster and keep a non-threatening posture (pointed in a downward direction with the other hand as a cover) to notify the potential threat that you are armed and ready. Never wave your firearm around and only point the firearm when you believe that you’ll have to defend yourself. I’ve been in this situation twice. The threat just stops for a split second and moves away quickly. Not once have I ever broke the law or endangered anyone, but I quite possibly saved my life and well being.

    • DaveGinOly May 7, 2016, 1:52 am

      “Stand your ground” isn’t about “backing up,” it’s about not having to surrender your right to peaceably go where you have a right to be without having to flee the scene of a lethal threat. If you’re ever in a state that denies you the right to stand your ground, you will find that “backing up” doesn’t qualify as compliance with the law, because “backing up” is not the “retreat” required in such states. They want you to actually remove yourself from the area in which you find yourself threatened, when possible, rather than using force.

  • wm conner May 6, 2016, 11:40 am

    I’m in FL. Does the laws include a common Leatherman rebar (3″ blade) as a weapon? I have the canceled carry permit, but do not always have a firearm. When it comes to deadly force is it the same?

    • Aardvark May 6, 2016, 8:57 pm

      There may be separate gun laws, but deadly force could mean knife, club, bow and arrow, ripping a guys throat out with your bare hands, etc.

    • Al May 7, 2016, 3:51 am

      CC permit in Florida definitely includes knives but also stun guns and pepper spray.

  • Pete May 6, 2016, 11:03 am

    California Penal Code section 198.5 does NOT give homeowners authority or justification to use deadly force inside their home. PC 198.5 explains and expands upon the prior PC section, PC 198, and applies it to homeowners while INSIDE their home. PC 198.5 gives a list of elements that must be present for this section to apply; must be INSIDE the home, must be against a person NOT a member of the household (includes family members AND any domestic help), they must be there ‘unlawfully, (this means they have NO BUSINESS inside your house,) and there must be forced entry. ‘Forced Entry,’ for the purposes of THIS SECTION ONLY, has been held to mean ‘any force expended’ to gain entry; pushing open a door that is ajar counts, brushing aside a curtain and stepping through an open window applies. Obviously kicking open a locked door applies. Merely walking in through an open door does not apply. So, if something ‘goes bump in the night’ and all these standards are met, all 198.5 PC does is state that PC Section 198 (Sufficiency of Fear) is understood, is a matter of fact that does not need to be proven in court. 198 PC is a whole another matter. The point is that stating that 198.5 PC gives you the authority to use the appropriate level of force inside the home is misleading. 198.5 PC says nothing about using force; it just stipulates to 198 PC. 198.5 PC came about as a reaction to the old Chief Justice (of California) Rose Bird days; her court held that a homeowner COULD NOT use deadly force inside his residence unless 1) the homeowner had exhausted all other means and 2) had retreated to the furthest recess within the home! So, in using deadly force to defend yourself/loved ones inside your home 198.5 PC will be an important part of your justification to use force but it is, in and of itself, not the only authority section. For instance, if something goes bump in the night and you leave your bedroom and go down the hall with your 870 and you see Stevie The Local Crackhead heading for the front door with your VCR tucked under his arm, can we apply 198.5 PC to shoot him in the back? In California? Texas, maybe. A more important section is 197 PC, Homicide (Justifiable) When Committed By Any Other Person ( other than a Peace Officer, 196 PC applies to them.)

  • Rsolli May 6, 2016, 10:40 am

    Until all of us gun owners elect a government that is committed to protecting the freedoms and rights that are protected by our Constitution, we will continue to lose them a little at a time until they are all but gone. This means walking away from a politician even if affiliated with your own political party.

  • Robert Ormsby May 6, 2016, 9:23 am

    Question,my daughter’s ex-boyfriend had her car.I tried the legal way getting the law to help to no avail .his father got the car had me come out to his house to get it.I have a CWP.the father grabbed me by the throat and slammed me on hood of car.I defended myself with my hands and he called police and said I put my gun in his gutt.I did not such thing and have witnesses to it.was arrested and charged with felony presenting and pointing a firearm.this happen Jan.4th 2015 my lawyer keeps telling me he’s talking with prosecutor pleading me not guilty. He used to be the prosecutor at one time and was highly recommended. It’s been over a year and still haven’t been to court.is there anything I can do to get my “speedy” Trial or anyone that can help?? I live in South Carolina. Any help would greatly be appreciated.

    • William Odekirk May 6, 2016, 9:44 am

      I had to shoot someone in 1986. Even though it was a clean shoot it took over 18 months to get my confiscated guns back and get the prosecute off my back.

      It doesn’t matter how right you are, once you use a gun all bets are off and you are in legal jeopardy . Shooting and killing someone changes your life forever.

      There is absolutely no training that prepares you for actually killing another person. However I am glad I was armed that day no question about that

  • David May 6, 2016, 8:49 am

    The insurance is great except for people like me with chronic injuries (auto accidents) that require constant use of pain medication, under the care of a neurologist I might add. CCW Safe specifically excludes us from coverage. So I guess is someone caused me massive pain that I must treat with narcotics, which I have been on for 17 years BTW, I am uncoverable by CCW Safe or anyone else. Great, although I do understand their stance. Sort of.

  • Patrick May 6, 2016, 8:17 am

    Our main enemy is our own government run by morons that we elected.
    If you want a crusade, then teaching people how to evaluate politicians and how to VOTE is far more important.
    We need real men who can tell the queers and liberals where to shove it!

  • Bernie May 6, 2016, 8:16 am

    A wise brother says: ” I’d rather be tried by twelve than carried by six”. And to further the common sense thread, I also learned, “your feet will save you”. Be careful where you walk, be ready to move away from danger, but be prepared.

    • Batman May 6, 2016, 1:10 pm

      Smartest comment yet on this topic. Thumbs up! The rest of you stop Fuck*n worry about shit.

  • robert f telfer May 6, 2016, 7:08 am

    Is there an insurance one can get for ones defence if one would happen to shoot some one in self defense of GBI and get arrested.

    • Ram6 May 6, 2016, 7:40 am

      Contact the USCCA. Their membership is quite reasonable and includes insurance, legal payments, etc. It’s a great organization.

    • Rick Walters May 6, 2016, 7:53 am

      Yes, there is a organization that you can join that will defend you in the case of a firearm related incident. I do not remember who it is but you may be able to find it somewhere on the internet. I would start looking at the concealed carry organizations. hope this helps you out.

    • Shooter May 6, 2016, 7:59 am

      In Texas the is a company called Texas Law Shield. It costs about $11.00 per month and should you ever need them they are there for you.

    • Mamamel Pito May 6, 2016, 8:24 am

      The NRA also has a decent insurance program for legal costs

      • bill segal May 6, 2016, 11:48 am

        pls e-m ins info ths

  • Paul Farber May 6, 2016, 7:05 am

    I think it’s great advice to be extremely knowledgeable of the law as it relates to circumstances that may require
    Use of a deadly weapon. No sane person wants to kill another human, but bullets fired in error cannot be taken back. It’s a decision which will change your life forever, and no one can afford to make a mistake in the brief instance when such a decision must be made. I’m not confident that enough CCW carriers are truly trained well enough, nor am I confident that enough permit holders are mentally prepared to make the correct decision first time, every time. But still, we need more competent people armed , with proper intent and training, among us, to supplement the deficit of police officers.

  • WilliamDahl May 6, 2016, 6:22 am

    I’m glad to live in Texas where deadly force is also authorized against burglary (not just residences or business, but even your automobile), theft during the nighttime, and even criminal mischief during the nighttime. If the gangbangers don’t like being shot while spraypainting their gang markings on fences / buildings / walls, then they should go to a more liberal state (or do it during the daytime when we’re not allowed to use deadly force against criminal mischief).

    • SureShot May 6, 2016, 8:11 am

      I also live in Texas and had to take NY wife to get her chl and a personal handgun, I work nights and had my home broken into while I was at work and my wife and kids were home, I have been here over 6 years and this is the second incident I’ve ever had my car was broken into at nearly 4am but a 2rounds into my front lawn broke it up sometimes I wonder if it was the same person and if I should had hit him instead of the ground to prevent my wife and kids from that experience.

      • Jeb May 6, 2016, 9:42 am

        The shierff told me many years ago when I was just a young man, that dead men tell no tales…

        There is a lot to that now more than way back when. With the lawyers and attorneys like they are now days, it’s not about the right and wrong of the matter, as it should always be… Let’s not leave out the news media here either, as it’s all about the money and sensationalized gain they plan their attack as well.

        So a person just needs to get right on the matter in their own mind before you load up and carry or prepare your home for such acts.

        You should never point any weapon, loaded or not; that you were not doing so to kill them. Then if this didn’t stand done as fast as you point to shoot/kill, then you do in fact kill them…

        Our Police are being attacked more and more now days from the media, than they are ever from the thugs,punks and thiefs.

        The media is about sensationalized reporting, which more times than not its way easier to make the law enforcement look guilty and get more response from the public, instead of the truth of the facts…

        The fact is our legal system as a whole only works for a few people anymore and those are lawyers, attorneys, politicians, news media and the criminals… you line any and/or all of these guys up, you can’t tell them apart, with the exception of some may dress better and have a better vocabulary…

        So you make this very simple for your on safety and we’ll being, forget about shooting someone in the leg or other non-lethal areas and humanely take that miserable person out period, or be prepared for the news media to come after you with all the lawyers and such right behind them…

        At least this mind set till our legal system is fixed back to the matters of right and wrong.

        Just my take on a really bad situation we have now all fueled by those few people that you can’t tell them apart …

        Yes it’s in God we trust and I also pray that God help and pertect our law enforcement…

    • Brian odekirk May 6, 2016, 9:24 am

      If you think you can shoot someone for spray painting graffiti you’ve lost your god damn mind and should NOT be carrying

      • Bob Bacon May 7, 2016, 1:12 am

        Probably better if you didn’t , just for your sake, but if some nickers die while spraypainting their crack addled garbage on someone’s house, good riddance to bad rubbish. hahahhahahha

  • GKJ May 6, 2016, 4:27 am

    Yes, the laws can be very confusing and you can be sure that as soon as a self defense incident has occurred, your life will be completely changed and interrupted in every possible way. Make sure you are ready for that possibility if you choose to carry.
    I have an interesting scenario as do many across the country. I own several hundred acres of land that is bordered by national forest on all sides. The land is posted properly according to the state game and fish commission. Unfortunately, during hunting seasons and sometimes outside of hunting seasons, I run into trespassers carrying firearms. I have had guns pointed at me on 3 occasions. I have learned not to get too close and seek cover before confronting them verbally, however, there will be times when that is not possible because I will be surprised. I have actually had people shoot across the county road into my land at game and then go in and try to retrieve it not more than 30 or 40 yards from my back yard, while my dogs were barking inside of the backyard fence. That kind of tells you what kind of people I am dealing with. What would be the legal implications if one of them threatened me by pointing their firearm at me and I made the decision that I was going to be shot and shot first ? I have called the Game and Fish many times and they have taken care of it, but this is a situation where there was a direct confrontation and no opportunity to do anything else. I would suspect the first thing that would happen is that LE would treat my like I shot a hunter for trespassing, when in reality I felt my life was in danger and I was defending myself. In my particular case, I believe I would almost have to have evidence that the trespasser shot at me first, otherwise I would probably be charged and the outcome of a trial would be very unpredictable. Any thoughts on this scenario ?

    • Al May 6, 2016, 10:40 pm

      A backhoe.

  • Adam elgindy May 6, 2016, 3:07 am

    Does the NRA insurance cover for exposed carry as well? For example if i carry for security work and have to use my firearm in self defense or defense of another etc? Im an NRA member but have only been given the $2,500 firearm loss, theft, or damage insurance and $5,000 for something else.

    • Shah Muhammad II of Khwarazmia (1200-1220AD) May 6, 2016, 9:17 am

      It seems to me, regardless of the setting, someone points a firearm at me, that’s the threat of GBI or death. If I can’t get away, I will respond in an appropriate way to prevent them from using lethal force against me or my family—pull the trigger until the assailant goes down and does not get up or I run out of ammunition. If I am in position, I would also consider beating the hell out of an assailant until they can’t get back up. This worked well in the Gabriel Giffords shooting in AZ.

      I have no interest in killing or GBI’ing another person. However, I have already made the decision, when it comes to who walks away in this kind of situation, it will be me and my family. The time to make this decision is now, before something happens. If you haven’t made that decision–that you will kill/GBI to protect yourself–you won’t be able to make it while someone is shooting at you.

      Thank the Lord and Carl Walther.

      • Bob Bacon May 7, 2016, 1:18 am

        Gabby Giffords is scum. I don’t believe she was even shot, but she fakes being brain-dead to push for gun-grabs.

        • Douglas Kincaid July 15, 2016, 10:25 am

          Really??? Reynolds Al must really love you! We are all entitled to our opinions…..NOT our own “facts”! I hope you dont have children!!!!

    • Ralph Celia May 6, 2016, 2:40 pm

      As a knowledgeable NRA Recruiter, the $5000.00 insurance is a Life and Accidental insurance policy on your life for accidentally being shot dead , at a range or hunting on that order.FYI.

  • Martin B May 4, 2016, 4:40 pm

    In the British Commonwealth world, the term GBH is rendered “Grievous Bodily Harm”, which may be open to interpretation, as some sensitive souls would grieve over a black eye. Nonetheless, we do not have self defense as a reasonable cause to acquire a firerms license or a firearm, it must be for sporting or hunting purposes. And no scary black rifles or we have to pay way more for an extra license. If in extremis we are compelled to use a firearm against a physically superior specimen, who would otherwise slaughter us to a pulp, self defense may be used in a court of law as a defense to a murder charge. But we would still face a murder trial and lose our freedom, our job, and likely our house and family, by the time a decision was made. And we would certainly lose our firearms license and all our cherished firearms. For this reason, might I suggest a shovel makes an excellent weapon, and was frequently used as such in the trenches in WWI. And it can be used to dispose of the remains afterwards. Just a thought.

    • Al May 4, 2016, 9:14 pm

      What you Britons need to do is get out of the EU and start making your own laws again. The only nations that have traditionally low crime rates are homogeneous nation states with a unified culture; something you’ll never see in a European country in your lifetime. It’s a sad state of affairs that you can get a fully automatic AK-47 on the black market but if you kill a home invader with a kitchen knife in England you go to prison for bloody murder. Winston Churchill must be spinning in his grave.

      • Greg May 6, 2016, 11:31 am

        But Neville chamberlain would love it. I’m sure Neville would love the current invasion of muslims, and spin it as a victory for peace

      • Bob Bacon May 7, 2016, 1:19 am

        Winston Churchill would be grinning over his cigar, the sorry bastard.

    • ron May 6, 2016, 7:12 am

      Does it really matter what is used as a weapon to defend against and possibly kill a thug? Would a UK court really look differently upon your actions if you used a (hunting, of course!) gun to defend yourself, vice a shovel?

      • Flyr May 6, 2016, 12:11 pm

        Liberals want you to give the dirtbags a fair fight . If faced by Ron brown (ferguson) who was larger than the average nfl starting linebacker and buffed out you are supposed to fight fairly , no guns clubs taser mace .

        As far as use of force is considered , the liberal press is not concerned about truth, justice or reality. Only the furtherance of the anti police, anti law abiding citizen guides the press.

  • Al May 4, 2016, 12:37 pm

    One piece of advice I would like to add: In this age of politically correct persecution of gun owners and racial bullying, it’s very likely the media will turn your life upside down by tilting the legal system against you; especially if it can reinforce their ever expansive narrative of “white racism” or “gun nut”. I would strongly suggest concealed carry insurance from the NRA or Concealed Carry Association of America. For less than a dollar a day, the latter offers up to a million dollars indemnity for legal expenses if you defend yourself whenever and wherever legally armed; in your home or on the street. They’ll post your bail, pay your court costs, find you a lawyer, and pay your legal fees. They also give you a card to hand out to the police; so that’s your statement until the attorney takes over.

    You could be legally and ethically beyond reproach – but an ambulance chaser and marxist media machine can bankrupt you and ruin your life. I think this insurance is definitely worth it.

    • Aaron May 5, 2016, 9:39 pm

      That is really, really rare.

      We’re just primed to think it is more likely than it is. Remember, propaganda from the feds is legal, now.

      They want an amped up, agitated populace.

    • 2B or not 2B 2A May 6, 2016, 5:54 am

      Well said. Might I add when you get the insurance find a lawyer right away, go sit down and get to know one another before, or if you may need the attorney, you know what to expect from him/her. The CCAA insurance packet they will send you will also offer attorney’s in your area to pre-consult with and furnish a card for you to hand to the police on thier arrival. I pray I never need to take anothers life but having the CCAA to back me up will certainly ease some of the burden. The CCAA is a great organization as is Guns America.

    • JoeUSooner May 6, 2016, 6:27 am

      I agree wholeheartedly, regarding the need for insurance protection… which is (although I usually cringe at the term) the true “common sense” action for gun owners. I’ll add one other option for affordable coverage… CCW Safe (excellent people there). I’m sure there are several other good firms, as well. Investigate them all, and get the coverage you are most comfortable with… but GET coverage.

    • ron May 6, 2016, 7:17 am

      Just as if it looks like you’re going to be arrested for something as simple as a traffic offense, don’t talk to the police until your attorney is there. Just give them your name. The police are NOT your friends, no matter HOW friendly they act! At that point, they are your worst enemy!

      • Ralph Celia May 6, 2016, 2:52 pm

        Ron, Comments like yours ” police are not your friends they are your enemy ” will get you a real awakening if you really need the cops. WHO THE HELL YOU GOING TO CALL ? Sorry Ron, we are the same people you go to church with , the same people that you talk to w/o our uniforms every day,and the same people that want to go home ever night to have dinner w/ our families. And the same people YOU CALL FOR HELP AT 2AM WHEN SOMEONE IS BREAKING INTO YOUR HOME AT NIGHT , gun or no gun you might have, we will protect you w/our lives no matter what. STOP PREACHING YOUR BULLSHIT.

        • Knight2 May 6, 2016, 6:05 pm

          Sorry Ralph, I agree with Ron. Never ever talk to any LEA about anything without a lawyer. They are NOT there to be your friend! Especially after a fatal shooting. Keep your mouth shut get an attorney. Also cops are always there 90% of the time AFTER any crime has occurred, and that’s being generous. One should claim, “I was in fear of my life” or, “they made a furtive movement”. Empty the entire magazine into them because that’s what most cops do. Remember a dead person tells no tales, again, lesson’s learned courtesy of most LEA, Ralph, if you want respect, start cleaning up your own house. Better judged by twelve then carried by six! I’ll defend myself thank you with the 2A and chose not to depend on any LEA.

    • LCDR USN Ret May 6, 2016, 8:38 am

      I have an umbrella policy from USAA that will also cover any lawsuit liability in the event I was sued by the estate of someone I had defended myself or a loved one from. Under a buck a day.

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