The “Center Mass” Myth and Ending a Gunfight
Surviving a gunfight isn’t what you think it is. Don’t let conventional wisdom get you killed. A well place round to “center mass” in your attacker may not take him out of the fight. Lots of people stay in the fight after “center mass” hits, and some even win it. If you expect to win your gunfight, you have to make sure that you have effectively ended the threat of your attacker. One, two or even several well placed “center mass” shots may not do what you think it will, and learning to recognize this before you gunfight may save your life.
There is a self styled self defense “expert” under every rock, and perhaps two behind every bush, these days. If you have a pet theory on what might work on the street then you can probably find a champion for that idea who actually charges people to teach them that skill. But few of the experts out there have ever been in gunfights, and even fewer have studied real gunfights to see how things really work out when the bullets really fly for blood.
There are more misconceptions out there than I can cover in one article but the one that probably gets to me the most, even over all the caliber wars that rage interminably in the print and cyber media, is the nearly universal acceptance that shooting a miscreant “center mass” with ________(fill in your favorite make, model and caliber) shooting _________ (fill in your favorite ammunition) hyper speed truck killer is practically guaranteed to get the job done.
Having studied in this field from a number of decades, I have run into plenty of cases where bullets did not do what folks would have assumed. And I have now collected enough of these that I think that rather than being anomalies, they are actually closer to the norm. Center mass hits in a gunfight do not in most cases end the fight. Erroneous assumptions can get you killed!
There is a well known video in training circles in which a Highway Patrol officer shoots an armed subject 5 times “center mass” (this is not my assessment but the statement of his immediate supervisors which are interviewed on the full version of the hour long tape) with his 4” .357 Magnum revolver firing hollow point ammunition. All 5 hits failed to do the job and the subject was able to fire one round which struck the officer in the armpit. That round wondered around in the chest cavity and found his heart. The officer unfortunately died at the scene and his attacker is alive today.
In a class I conduct under the title “Fire For Effect” I start out by showing a video of standoff in which a hostage taker is fired on by police with .223 rifles and .40 caliber handguns. Throughout the whole disturbing sequence, which lasts about 10 seconds, the bad guy is hit multiple times in the torso with both rifle and pistol rounds. You can see him place his non-firing hand to his chest, clearly a lung is hit. However he is able to shoot his hostage 3 times, not rapidly. The hostage, a trim female, is active throughout the scene but later died from her wounds. In this case both the attacker and the victim had “center mass” hits that had no immediate effect.
I have accumulated confirmed incidents in which people have been shot “center mass” up to 55 times with 9mm JHP ammunition (the subject was hit 106 times, but 55 of those hits were ruled by the coroner to be each lethal in and of themselves) before he went down. During training at the FBI Academy we were told of a case in which agents shot a bank robber 65 times with 9mm, .223 and 00 buckshot – he survived! These are not rare cases. The happen quite often.
If a gunfight ever comes your way, your attacker may fall to a hit to the liver and he may not. He may fall to two or three hits to the kidneys, intestines or spleen, but he may not. He will certainly be in bad health. He likely will not survive, but what he does for the next several seconds to a few minutes is not guaranteed because you hit him “center mass.”
Heart and lung hits don’t statistically fare much better. I have three students and three other acquaintances who were all shot in a lung at the outset of gunfights. The students came to me after their fights to learn how to keep from getting shot again. Last time I checked all of those people were still alive and the people who shot them are still dead. Every one of them was able to respond effectively after being shot “center mass”, one might even say they were shot in the “A-zone”. And they were shot with .38 Special (three of them), 9mm, .357 Magnum and 8mm Mauser, so it’s not all about caliber. One of those was a Chicom 12.7 mm round! He lived next door to me for many years.
So, what’s a person to do? First off, realize that one shot, even a fairly well placed shot may not do the job so don’t set there and admire your handiwork or wait for it to take effect. But even two hits may not get the job done!
After years of trying to get a grasp on this I have come to look at the results of shooting a living breathing target – be it a human attacker or a game animal – as falling into 3 or 4 categories. They are :
- Instant Collapse – this takes place 1 to 2 seconds from the shot being fired
- Rapid Collapse – this can take from 3 to 15 seconds and is quite common.
- Marginal Effect – this can even be a lethal hit but it takes from 15 to 300 (yes 300!) or even more seconds.
- The 4th is simply unacceptable and is a total failure.
The last category we don’t like to discuss but happens too often . We saw it recently in Washington with a Center Mass hit from an officer’s pistol and the subject was still walking around the next day.
What is “effective” shooting? Sad to say, it is demanding. It is also, I think, variable depending on the conditions. For example, the robber armed with a scattergun who is standing 10 feet away must be stopped “right now!” If you do not bring about Instant Collapse someone may very well die…that someone may be you!
On the other hand, if there is a gang banger launching bullets in your general direction using un-aimed fire about 20 yards away then a hit that brings about Rapid Collapse might do the job.
I cannot imagine a Marginally Effective result being very desirable in any case, but it does buy you some time in some cases.
How does this relate to hits? In order to achieve Instant Collapse you must scramble the “circuitry” that keeps the bad guy on the attack. That means the brain or spinal cord.
The head is not only a fairly difficult target to hit in the real world – because it moves a lot – but it is also difficult to penetrate and get a pistol bullet into the place it must be to be effective. For normal purposes we might write off the head, keeping it in reserve for very special circumstances.
The spine is not that easy to hit either. It isn’t large, and to be effective the hit needs to be in the upper 1/3 of the spine or at a point about level with the tip of the sternum. I think that is around T11. But of course the huge problem is that it is hidden by the rest of the body. We are the good guys, we don’t go around shooting people in the back. So the exact location is something that can only be learned through lots of practice on 3D targets. Your point of aim on the surface changes with the angle at which the target is facing.
The bottom of the spine isn’t much use. I know of several people shot in the pelvis. It did not break them down as many theorize. I am not saying it doesn’t happen but in the only case I know of in which it did the person who was “anchored” with a .357 magnum to the pelvis killed the person that shot him – you can shoot just fine from prone.
A shot, or preferably multiple shots to the heart and major arteries above the heart (not below!) may achieve Rapid Collapse, but not always. Officer Stacy Lim was shot in the heart at contact distance with a .357 Magnum and is still alive and her attacker is still dead! Score one for the good guys…or in this case gals!
So now what constitutes Marginal Effectiveness? A hit to the lungs! Even multiple hits to the lungs. Unfortunately though, most often lung hits are effective in ending the fight because the subject decides to quit the fight, not because he MUST. A famous Colonel Louis LeGarde once wrote what is considered “the” book on gunshot wounds. 65% of his patients shot through the lungs – with rifles! – survived with the predominant treatment being only bed rest!
Effective Practice and “Dynamic Response”
The goal of practice, one would think, is to make correct, effective shooting techniques a matter of reflex, so that you don’t have to think about what you are doing in a gunfight.
Most people will perform under stress at about 50 to 60% as well as they do on the range…and that is if they practice a lot! If they only go to the range once every other month that performance level decreases dramatically. Shooting and weapons handling are very perishable skills. Also folks tend to practice the wrong stuff inadvertently. I put this in the classification of “practicing getting killed” but that too is a topic for another day.
| Movement and Variation doesen’t mean innacurate shooting. In a real gunfight you and your adversary will most likely be moving. Click here if you can’t see the video. |
Let’s talks about a basic response, what I call “Dynamic Response.” Situations vary and this is not meant to be a universal answer, just one that will work for about 80% of scenarios.
It is pointless to stand still on the range and shoot a stationary target, unless you simply want to polish up some marksmanship fundamentals. That is a necessary part of learning to shoot. But if you are practicing for a fight, then fight!
Some rules.
- Don’t go to the range without a covering garment – unless of course you always carry your gun exposed (no comment).
- Don’t practice drawing your gun fast – ever! – while standing still.
Part of the Dynamic Response is to step off the line of attack (or on rare occasions that are dependent on circumstances backwards or forwards) and present the weapon with as much alacrity as you can muster and engage the target with overwhelming and accurate fire! By the way, never assume a fight is completely over just because you canceled one threat. Don’t practice “standing down” too quickly. We have a video attached which will hopefully give you the right idea.
I wish there was a formula of how to stand and how to hold you gun but there really isn’t. We don’t do “Weaver vs. Isosceles vs. Modern Iso vs. whatever”. We don’t do “Thumbs Crossed vs. Thumbs Forward vs. Thumb Up…never mind.” Those are things for you to work out on your own. You use what makes YOU effective not what works for a guy who practices 50,000 rounds the week before a big match (that is not an exaggeration). Competitive shooters will throw out advice on what works for them. It may not work for you.
There is also not “one true gun”. Your skill is far more important that what you carry, within reason. We are not really talking about “stopping power”, whatever that is, here but rather effectiveness.
I can find no real measure – referred to by some as a mathematical model – of stopping power or effectiveness. And I have looked for 44 years now! Generally speaking I do see that bigger holes (in the right place) are more effective than smaller holes but the easy answer to that is just to shoot your smaller gun more – “a big shot is just a little shot that kept shooting”. True, I carry a .45 but that is because I am lazy and want to shoot less. A good bullet in 9mm in the right place (the spine!) will get the job done. If you hit the heart, 3 or 4 expanded 9mms will do about what a .45 expanding bullet will do or one might equal .45 ball….IF (note the big if) it penetrates. That is not based on any formula, it is based on what I have found to happen – sometimes real life does not make sense.
Practicing Dynamic Response means practicing with an open mind. Circumstances in a real gunfight are unpredictable and the more unpredictability you mix up into your practice the more your brain will be preparing itself for a possible real gunfight.
In real life, your gunfight may be dark, cold, rainy, etc. The subject may be anorexic (a lot of bad guys are not very healthy) or he may be obese (effective penetration and stopping power of your weapon). There are dozens of modifiers which change the circumstance, most not under your control. My only advice on this is what I learned from an old tanker: “Shoot until the target changes shape or catches fire!” Vertical to horizontal is a shape change, and putting that one more round into his chest at point blank range may catch his clothes on fire, even without using black powder.
We tell our military folks to be prepared to hit an enemy fighter from 3-7 times with 5.56 ball, traveling at over 3,000 feet per second. This approach sometimes worked, but I know of several cases where it has not, even “center mass.”
With handguns, and with expanding bullets, it is even more unpredictable, but through years of study I have developed a general formula, subject to the above mentioned unpredictable circumstances.
- 2-3 hits with a .45
- 4-6 with a .40
- 5-8 with a 9mm
With a revolver, the rounds are not necessarily more effective but I would practice shooting 3 in a .38 or .357 merely because I want 3 left for other threats. Not that those next three won’t follow quickly if the target hasn’t changed shape around my front sight blade. A .41, .44 or .45 Colt I would probably drop to two. Once again, they are not that much more effective than a .45 Auto but I don’t have the bullets to waste.
In any case, I want to stress the part that it is more about how you shoot than what you shoot, within reason. It is also more about the mindset and condition of the subject you are shooting which is not under your control. Take control – buy good bullets and put them where they count the most! And remember “anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting a whole lot!” (but please stop when the threat is cancelled, we don’t advocate “finishing shots”).
Gunfights are ugly things. I don’t like to talk about the blood and guts aspects of defending life any more than the next guy. But it is our lives we are talking about here. By researching how gunfights are fought, and more importantly, how gunfights are won, it may give both of us the edge if a gunfight ever comes our way. I hope to cover many of the points I have learned and learned to train others in over the coming months. It isn’t as easy to write about it as it is to teach it in person, but you can only succeed if you are willing to try.
I hope you enjoy the ride.
Press on!
Jim
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{ 55 comments… read them below or add one }
While what you say may be true in some cases you still have to be mindful of
just how many times you do fire. The reason being that there are many lawyers
hired by the families of the bad guys who will use that in court against you as well as prosecuters.
Think about it when you say “Your honor I was just trying to stop the threat when I shot the man 15 times.”
Shooting is a perishable skill. Better to be as prepared and as proficient a shooter as you can. Aim small,miss small. Well placed
shots will always do more good than spray and pray.
well i carry and have carried for several years now a bersa .380
it is carried in an in the pants holster , does anyone have an opinion on that?
i feel that the bersa is made very well and seems to be a great peace of mind weapon.
i also always use quality home defense ammo.
ive never been call on to use the bersa but i feel it is adequate , if i need it.
someone please wake me up if im living in a day dream.
thanks roco
Roco, if you’re comfortable carrying the Bersa and you PRACTICE regularly with it, you’re much better served with IT than you would be with a .45 or 9mm that you shoot once a year, or a heavier pistol you leave in your CAR or NIGHT STAND.
I have carried multiple different firearms for self defense over the years in many different calibers. Currently and for the past 6 months I have carried a Bersa Thunder .380 with different types of ammunition and in different types of holsters, unfortunately I had to use it a month ago on a person who tried to hold me up. I was with my wife walking from a parking lot into a restaurant that we regularly and still go to when a male came out from behind another vehicle who already had a pistol in his hand and demanded my money. As my back was turned to him at the time and we were out in the open where there was no real cover. You don’t really know what you will do in any situation until you are presented with the circumstance. Thankfully my wife was level headed enough to instantly run towards the entrance of the restaurant (she is trained with firearms as I am however does not carry a gun- personal choice) I turned to attempt to protect her location at the same time drew my .380 and thankfully without hesitation fired 5 shots hitting him 4 times in the chest and once in the throat (throat shot wasn’t intentional- just happened to land there) he died roughly 45 minutes later. I am trained in cpr/first aid and did try to keep him alive. Although people make poor decisions in life as my thief had doesn’t give me the right to just let him bleed out-again personal choice made. Bottom line, my wife was safe, I was safe and the thief wont be trying to steal from anyone again. As many people here and other locations have said, it’s not the type of gun or caliber that matters. It’s the firearm and caliber that you are VERY comfortable shooting and hopefully you can apply what you have learned if you are ever faced with a potentially life or death situation.
Caliber is totally irrelevant when it comes to incapacitation. It is not bullet diameter that matters but shot placement and penetration to vital organs that incapacitates. No caliber can be relied on to stop someone or some animal 100 per cent of the time as there are too many factors that weigh into the equation. Small calibers like the .220 swift, and 6.5 Mannlicher kill all out of proportion to their caliber. Many old time turn of the century world wide hunters such as Agnes Herbert and W.D.M. Bell found out that the small 6.5 caliber would kill anything on the planet and the bigger calibers they also used killed no quicker or better. No one these days has the opportunity to kill 1,000 plus elephants like Bell did or hunt on 3 continents like Herbert did so their experience’s are certainly not be swept under the ‘big bore fanatics table’s”. And when it comes to pistol caliber’s even the much worshiped “Thompson tests” of the early 1900′s on cattle actually proved the opposite of what the charlatans who conducted the tests were trying to prove i.e. that bigger pistol calibers were superior to smaller ones. Many people and animals are killed every year with pistol calibers like the .22, .25 acp, 32 acp, 380 acp and the 9mm. Again bullet penetration and placement is the key not the diameter of the projectile. Doubt my word, then review the large tough body guards that were guarding President Reagan when he was shot. The body guards went down as if hit by lighting after being hit with nothing more than a .22 rim-fire handgun and some of the rounds were not even well placed.
Better check your facts. President Regan and his “body guards” were shot with a .32 (Center fire) and not a .22 rimfire as you said. A large caliber bullet is always better than a small caliber bullet because of the greater foot pounds of energy transferred to the target on impact. You can shoot a man in the thumb with a .45 and knock him down. Shoot him with a .25 and you are just going to piss him off. If you knock him down you can get away. Piss him off and he is going to kill you. I’ll take a big bore gun over your small bore gun any day. When the day is over I’l wave to you as I drive by and you are laying in the ditch bleeding or dead.
Quote:
“If you hit the heart, 3 or 4 expanded 9 mm’s will do about what a .45 expanding bullet will do or one might equal .45 ball….IF (note the big if) it penetrates. That is not based on any formula, it is based on what I have found to happen – sometimes real life does not make sense.” Quote
I would suggest you actually go out and hunt with the 9mm versus the .45acp. You obviously have ZERO experience on this or you would have learned long ago the 9×19 is superior in the penetration department. The .45acp even with hardball 230 grain bullets is notorious for relatively poor penetration. Try shooting deer sometime with both calibers especially beyond point blank range. The heart will stop whether hit by a 20mm cannon or a .22 cal. bullet, dead is dead not deader. I have had much better results when shooting deer, especially at odd angles, with the super penetration of the 9×19 than the slow moving and low penetrating .45acp. Since deer do not read gun magazines or blogs they do not know anything about calibers. When properly hit they fall down dead when the bullet penetrates vital organs. So far no 9mm bullet has ever bounced off an animal I have shot and no animal has ever disappeared in a read puff of mist when hit with the 45acp either.
Actually I do hunt with a handgun (as well as rifles) and have killed well in excess of 2500 animals
Jim
animals when shot even with small caliber bullets are downed by shock. they have no fear ,dont know what hapened to them and wish no one harm.unlike humans,that choose to do harm ,for their own reasons and can think,do not in my experiance go down easy.i have hunted deer and brought down biguns with my trusty 243cal. husquarvana ,with my own reloads. humans ,because we think we are right or our cause is just can fight to unusual lenghts.that is why some people that have never had to defend their family and themselves with their fists ,knives,guns,hand to hand ,think that hitting an enemy with proper force will stop them.it some times wont.people like you my friend will be surprised but too late! i am sorry for all that think like you.FOR THE REST OF US ,KEEP YOUR MUSKET CLEAN AND POWDER DRY.
I have recently become a 10 mm fan due to its round versatility . Reading this article makes me wander about the 5.7 x 28. Its a step up from the 22 and from what i hear low recoil decent penetration. any info would be appreciated.
The 5.7mm was developed by FN because of its superior penetration of today’s body armor. The larger the caliber usually the less it penetrates. Now I know this is the exact opposite of what many of the no nothing gun writers (who have beat the big bore drums for years) have always harped about. Really knowledgeable people (few and far between) like the late P.O. Ackley found out that the very small caliber .220 Swift shooting a soft point 48 grain bullet would penetrate 1/2 inch hardened armor plate while the larger 30-06 with a steel penetrator core (armor piercing round) would not penetrate the same 1/2 inch armor plate. Again the exact opposite of the big bore boys who claim large pistol and rifle calibers penetrate better than the smaller calibers do. Another test conducted after WWII proved exactly the same. A 9mm Englis High power pistol penetrated a WWII helmet at an astonishing 125 yards with fmj hardball while the anemic .45acp bounced off at a mere 35 yards (see the book “The Englis Diamond” for further reading”). Now you know why the Europeans who in years past fought so many wars, stuck with the 9×19 and .30 Tokerov and .30 Mauser rather than adopt the low penetrating .45acp. The .45acp was an inferior pistol as well as an inferior sub-machine gun cartridge due to its heavy recoil, low penetration, and looping trajectory. They could not carry as much ammo when using the .45acp either. The 45acp was rejected by most of the European powers as the inferior combat round. Expanding on this historical experience FN came out with the 5.7mm which was promptly rejected by the gun writer crowd as an anemic version of the .22 hornet round not realizing of course that the military 5.7 round is far different in construction that the 5.7 civilian round. I might add that even the soft point ammo is quite deadly on ground hogs at reasonable ranges as is the .22 hornet. I would suggest some of these gun writers actually go hunting with either the FN 5.7 pistol round or the much older .22 Hornet rifle round. It would surprise them.
ONCE AGAIN,ANIMALS ARE STOPPED MOSTLY BY SHOCK,NOT THE SIZE OF THE ROUND.PEOPLE ARE NOT HINDERED BY SHOCK. WE HAVE A MENTAL GOAL. WE MUST BE STOPPED,NOT LIKE GROUND HOGS BUT LIKE HUMANS WITH A CAUSE.MUCH HARDER TO STOP.CHECK THE MAU MAU WAR. THEY WERE NOT STOPPED BY SMALL CALIBER WEAPONS. IF I AM WRONG ,PLEAS SET ME STRAIGHT.
Penetration is a result of total mass, frontal area, and velocity. A long, thin projectile traveling at the same velocity as a short projectile of the same diameter will always penetrate deeper in the same medium.
I find it VERY difficult to believe that a soft-point of ANY caliber or weight will penetrate hardened steel better than a steel-point bullet as well. In my considerable experience, almost ALL soft-point bullets that impact steel shatter: that’s why we HAVE steel-point and depleted uranium bullet cores rather than just lead soft-points.
I would also like to remind anyone interested, sinc eI am a 25-year veteran of the military, that it is more COSTLY to TREAT a wounded soldier than to BURY a dead one. Military ammunition is meant to wound more than to kill.
Well said James. I agree 100%
Actully not. Military ammo is required by NATO to be FMJ (full metal jacket) SO THAT you are NOT maimed by mushrooming rounds.
just as a follow up to the .220 swift. i have a custom remington 700 in .17 remington that can be loaded to 4200fps with a 22.5 grain bullet. (checked via chrono) fired at 200 yards it will slide through a 1″ piece of steel like a knife through butter. this has now been witnessed by many natsayers who are now belivers. the bullets are custom made and that all i will say. even with this i would not use this configuration against any man or animal. not enough bullet mass. with hollow points its just right for critters like ground hogs out to 300 yards with zero wind.
anyhow the ultimate (imho) is a large calliber bullet moving between 1000 – 1800 FPS weighting at least 250 grains or more. someone once asked me what weapon i would want if i was at home and 3 very big angry home raiders just kicked my front door. my answer then as today is the bigest gun that i can wrap my hand around with a 100 shot mag….
keep them shots flying…
We should remember WHY the 45acp was adopted by the US Army! The Model 1911 45acp stopped charging attackers who managed to stab or hack the Army officers who just shot them with 32′s or 38′s or whatever “private purchase” weapon an army officer bought! The 45acp knocked them down for follow up shots “IF” necessary! All that being said, My original CZ75 9mm with its standard hi-cap mag gives me a “super comfort” level when it is in its holster on my hip in concealed carry mode! The 9mm kills, pure and simple! As we know, it rides on the hips of todays Marines, Army, Navy, Air-Force, Coast Guards etc. Now here is the “BIG HOWEVER”! In the “woods”, BEAR COUNTRY, my 44mag loaded with Garrett Cartridges 330 gr loads makes me a heck of a lot safer! The same weapon and load rested on my hip on “ALL” of my African Safaries. As for our “local” hunting, my 44mag loaded with 4 rounds of snake shot and 2 rounds of 330 gr Garrett cartrides is a great comfort along with my snake boots!
Quote:We should remember WHY the 45acp was adopted by the US Army! The Model 1911 45acp stopped charging attackers who managed to stab or hack the Army officers who just shot them with 32′s or 38′s or whatever “private purchase” weapon an army officer bought! The 45acp knocked them down for follow up shots “IF” necessary! Quote:
A recent study of actual U.S. Army records from that time period coupled with other well know historical writings proved the .45 caliber revolvers and late in the war the .45acp used during the insurrection and also the .30 cal U.S. military rifles did not stop attacking warriors with any regularity whatsoever. The only weapon that did was the .12 ga. shotgun loaded with buckshot at point blank range. After the War Colt published lurid advertisements claiming the .45 would knock a man down, spin him around like a top or make him disappear in a red puff of mist. Of course not only did U.S. Army documents of this time period refute such fantasies but the gun writers for years were too darn lazy to do any of their own research and took the old Colt advertisement propaganda as fact.
The same stories have circulated for years about the stopping power of elephant rifles i.e. 45 cal. and larger but sudden stops by calibers like the .240 Weatherby, 6.5 mm, 7×57 and other smaller calibers were always swept under the rug because they did not fit into the “big bore philosophy” which was and is fantasy. Several years ago a TV documentary showed an elephant culling operation where the men used nothing more than the .308 with 150 grain full metal jacketed military ammo. No elephants ran away, none charged, and all fell down dead as if struck by lightening. Again seeing is believing but the “big bore boys” came up with some of the wildest and most ridiculous explanations on why the .308 was able to kill these elephants. They claimed it was still sucicide to use it on dangerouns game. Strange the entire field was littered with very dead huge elephants.
In the 1980′s Pistolero magazine went to Mexico to get around animal cruelty laws and shot pigs with the .38 .357 mag., 9mm and .45acp using modern expanding ammo. They saw no difference in the killing power of the .45acp v/s the other calibers and stated that the pigs jumped higher and squealed louder when hit with the 9×19. The .45 did not knock the pigs down, did not spin them around like a top and did not make them disappear in red puff of mist either.
In conclusion I would have to say from my own real life hunting experience with the .45acp that it is the most overrated caliber ever invented and is absolutely inferior to the 9×19 in very possible way no matter what ammo you are shooting out of the .45acp. People of the early 1900′s can be excused for believing the wild stories about the .45acp but how anyone in this modern day and age with the vast amount of information we have via computers and who still believe such ridiculous stories simply proves the gullibility of many people.
“In conclusion I would have to say from my own real life hunting experience with the .45acp that it is the most overrated caliber ever invented and is absolutely inferior to the 9×19 in very possible way no matter what ammo you are shooting out of the .45acp. People of the early 1900′s can be excused for believing the wild stories about the .45acp but how anyone in this modern day and age with the vast amount of information we have via computers and who still believe such ridiculous stories simply proves the gullibility of many people.”
I tell you what, I’ll let you shoot me with your 9×19 if you let me shoot you with my 45 first…
Well said. Bet he doesn’t want to take you up on that offer, either!
Can I watch? I always like to see an idiot get whats coming to him! After you knocked him off his soap box he would be too dead to shoot you with his beloved 9×19.
I would let him shoot me in the head with his sling shot loaded with a grain of sand and he can shoot first. If he will let me throw a 20 pound boulder and hit him in the head after he shoots me.
Of course you’d want to shoot first. I guess your confidence wanes when put to the test?
Just saying, if the 9×19 can’t put someone down like you’re claiming, why would you not want to prove it? I mean, your round is a sure win, and the 9×19 is a sure loss, right?
From my perception/reading of Mr. Higginbothams’ article, I don’t believe he is advocating any particular caliber to use for defensive purposes or keep firing till you run out of ammo. He is just making the point that if you are in a situation that requires you to defend yourself with deadly force to be prepared for anything to happen even after the attacker is down. I totally agree with him that you have to use the grip, stance, caliber or whatever you feel comfortable with. These experts give good advice, but that may not work for you or me. You may not have time to “setup” and use your “favorite” grip/stance in some instances that will require you to defend yourself. You don’t know what your attacker is “on” regardless of what that person looks like.
Hunting is a prime example. Sometimes the animal comes from a different direction/angle than we had anticipated. I think we all have had one shot kills (with instant knockdown), two shot kills, three shot kills and ones that get away with shots all in the vitals. You just have to be able to react to the situation at hand. Thanks for the article.
Thought provoking article and certainly one that brings out the ‘differences’ of opinions. My partner shot his assailant 16 times while being hit 10 times himself. The assailant died of a heart attack four months later. Partner made it but had to reload his revolver three times using one arm! So gunfights don’t go the way one wants, ever. Because if it did, they wouldn’t happen to us. The best fight is the one you don’t have… survival mindset is most important in keeping you upright minus a brain scrambling head shot to you (then mindset is gone). Classes that teach “be prepared to take a hit” and drum that into you might be more helpful than ones that suggest (and JH is NOT) a ‘perfect’ shot at the onset. Too bad we can’t shoot the gun out of the bad guy’s hand! Training must include physical exertion, anxiety and as much stress as your student’s health will allow. Short of shooting the student the criteria should be ‘stress, stress and stress’ and see how they think and respond afterward. The Newhall CHP shooting of long ago certainly proved that we ‘fight like we train’ and four officers died because they didn’t train properly. Times change but the bad guys have access to caliber, protective clothing and usually surprise. Be prepared for tunnel vision, selective heaving, clumsy motion and missed shots (if you haven’t trained under stress)… of course all this happens to less than 1% of the population, but! Thanks for a thought provoking article.
Quote: From my perception/reading of Mr. Higginbothams’ article, I don’t believe he is advocating any particular caliber to use for defensive purposes Quote:
I think you had better go back and re-read his article. Not only this article but his past articles as well. He is always bad mouthing the 9×19 and some of his stories about the .45 acp bullet performance border on the fantastic.
Ok, I’m no expert, I was a FMF Corpsman. What do I know? I’ve see gore that should Kill and I’ve seen Gore Lose! It’s not the size of the weapon — the .22 is the most famous ‘hit’ weapon in the ENTIRE world. Remember that. Here is the best thing I ever learned, and some USMC or Gunny out there help me out -”Practrice slow to shoot fast!” — in battle things move 781.25 times faster – exactly – so if you practice really fast, that means you can clear your weapon, slam home a 30 round clip that’s taped together to make a double mag, Load, assist, sight in at 200 yards, safe and score a 10 in .0005612 seconds, roll to your next cover, unsafe, assist, aim, and hit a 10 in the head at 200 yards in .0000013150135 seconds flat (you don’t have all that clumsy detach mag, get new mag, bang the helmet to free the rounds, insert mag, release bolt, seat the round, select fire, and unsafe the rifle so your time goes down really fast).
The same is true of your 22 LR caliber. The mean time is (excluding the gory details) .00014145 seconds, to draw, load, unsafe, aim, two rounds into softest part of head that have direct paths to the brain, safe your weapon, holster it, snap it, and walk away like nothing happened.
If you really want to know the difference – just watch a ‘raw’ (meat) recruit do his evolution, with some DI screaming at him, and THEN watch the Marine take fire, spray and pray, reload, seat round and wait. The time drops from a practice of 10 seconds to 3 seconds, and no one has droped a mag, no one has ‘lased’ another Marine, and when the second incoming round heads his way, he’s got a 3 round burst headed right in the right direction —
You get Scared as a mosquito watching the second hand clap — but while you are moving 10 times faster, and you are not fumbling and you are not lazing your brother and you have your rifle near where the next shot is going to come from.
It’s not the caliber — like I said, I was a Corpsman I’ve SEEN that old helmet on top of a grenade trick. And yeah, it WAS a US Grenade MKII and M26 — so you can’t say ‘second rate’ (besides who left country first? them or us>) and a grenade doesn’t have a caliber it’s that big. and yeah, people DO live though it – and no, a helmet is not THAT tough —
So: cal 223 or 308, cal 45 or 22 — or no caliber at all, just pieces of metal moving REALLY fast — and you can and often do live. Practice SLOW to move FAST — when you are scared, things go REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY fast – so you best practice moving slow and in the fewest steps — AIM — how long does it take? 2 second if you have a Cal 45 and are taking your time — about 1 second if you are scared and taking your time — I keep hearing us Medical guys being screamed at – tap-tap-double-tap! — now a ‘tap’ is just a cool cop or boot way of saying ‘shoot’ (we presuming you are aiming) If I hit you above the heart in civilian clothes, you are going to die with one hit — IF I am using a firearm I’m used to, IF I am using a hollow point (Personal Protection Round or PPR) OR if I am using a frangible round (I don’t know if they are legal for non LEA (COPS). THAT is where the heart breaks into a lot of different parts — the arch where the blood goes to your brain and where it goes to your legs, and where it comes back to your lungs to get more oxygen — but WHAT IF I hit a rib and that round spins right back out leaving a hole about the size of your little finger and about 1/8th of an inch deep?
Speaking of Deep, you are in it — and it’s all DO-DO and it’s all around you — so you best make that one for you, one for your friend, and one for the road.
BIGGER IS BETTER. I have a friend who’s a gunsmith. He had a client who wanted a ‘fast, hot, long range take down rifle’ and he paid for it — he bought the rifle, spent about $2500 to make it really fast and long range that would take it down. When my friend asked if he’d ever clocked a round, he said that yeah, at the range the last time -he was using X match brass, trued up on a hand ‘lathe’ where you ‘push’ the bullet true to the case all the way around — and it fit the neck like a cork fits a bottle of good wine! — he was P++ and PERFECT — came out somewhere over 3200 FPS. Problem was that at normal hunting ranges, the bullet exited the deer before it could open up! — over$3000 for a good hunting gun that wouldn’t even kill a deer at 50 yards! And that doesn’t include the $1000 scope and rings, plus the accessories. Like the gunsmith said — If you were to take that shot at 600 yards you could eat venison for dinner, and not give up tracking a wounded deer after three or four hours.
Now, I have one more very moral thing to tell EVERYONE — a firefight is maybe the scariest thing you will ever do, maybe not. But I’ll tell you that it might be the scariest thing for anyone on the other side of that apartment wall, or one house away across the yard, or across the street — a 44 mag is a POWERFUL round, and if you don’t have a large hollow point that flattens out REALLY fast — you are in TROUBLE — REAL trouble. So– you want to be aware of your backdrop, it doesn’t stop at the bad-guy, unless you train yourself to be short-sighed.
I think it’s called “Man Slauter’ when you aim at something 5 feet away and kill something 60 feet away. Here’s what my friend, a cop and RangeMaster told me: 90% of all REAL LIFE gunfights happen inside of 15 feet, 95% happen inside of 10 feet, and 98% happen inside of either 5 or 8 feet. That leaves you 2% that will happen to you farther away than 15 feet.
I’ve plugged and tapped a Marine with 22 AK rounds in his chest and abdomen – and my biggest worry was well there were too many — he was an M60 machine-gunner — and got his Silver Star for keeping a field of fire (prone pressed FLAT down on the ground with his feeder laying on top of him to keep him going and his vital fluids in him and not on the ground, with badly tied battle dressings — there were ONLY two jobs to do: pull the trigger on a target, and to keep the ammo feeding when he pulled the trigger – and it was lucky for me he was a long way down the list of ‘saves’ — or his feeder would’ve taken me out for keeping him from doing his job as a US MARINE. They are Crazy — but damn! they are good!
So, it’s not the make of the gun, the muzzle velocity, the amount you spend on your weapon — it’s simply can you hit where you aim? Can you put not one bullet on to of another, but spread them out so you do enough damage that there is, at the end of the day, only one story that a jury is going to hear – SO — don’t ‘trick’ your pistol or shot-gun, it proves you are an ‘expert’ and could have waked the inside of the line between disable and dead (and few juries will buy ‘but dead is disabled! Really!) Practice in groups of two or three – period. Then it’s automatic reflex, it’s ‘training’ when you fall in a pool do you automatically do the back stroke to get back to short? Do you swim all the way to the other side then come back? or do you see if you can stand, or do you simply reach out and try to see if you can reach the edge of the pool — it depends on a lot of things, training is one — I swim underwater — training – but it works fine – I’m already down there.
Like the man said — into the rib-cage — that’s ‘above’ center of mass but will have the highest chance of ‘disabling’ someone and 50 rounds is generally a disproportionate response, especially when followed by a kick to some part of the body and a “Whooping War Dance” around the body while screaming — “Who’s your daddy now!”
Remember – slow is fast, never carry a caliber larger than you need, an SAA long Colt will take down a bear or an elk, and they are fired by both a rifle and a pistol! — at the least a PPR will pick you up, and set you down about a foot away, that’s the second you need to pull back the hammer, aim, and see if it changes shape. If not, you have another round ready to do the trick, and another second to hammer back and take aim. A GOOD PPR will probably not leave the body, but that body will have changed shape.
While there are LOTS of rule number 1′s. The MOST IMPORTANT here is pray to God you aren’t so loaded for bear, you kill an innocent, and if you believe none of us are innocent, then keep that by-stander safe!!!! — it’s not difficult if you don’t let your Testosterone run away with your brain, and practice slow a lot. Scared can make you shake, it can speed up time, it can tunnel-vision you — it can do nothing good for you unless you are ready for it. And remember: any bad guy you want to mess with is NOT in an Abrams M1-A1, nor is he in titanium threaded ceramic filled looks like James Bond on the make clothes. He might be. The odds are against it. I’m FAR more worried about walking between a Bear and her cub(s) while focused on something more visible and interesting, like my hiking partner and the way her jeans fit her, or her helping me set up a camera shot and holding a white card at the right angle doesn’t mean we aren’t armed – but with weapons we can do a USMC drill on, and which fit our hands, arms, muscles correctly — so a 9mm can be absolutely as deadly as a 45, but so can a 22, and you don’t have to run away after you fire it either. You just have to be good — and remember – finding cover is a skill maybe more important than caliber. And no, to my knowledge no man or woman has EVER merged his atoms with the ground or a plant — EVER. Though I’ve see too many fit them INSIDE some wood, but no merging is involved, and that wood was not where they were shot, unless they were a mortician who was shot in the showroom.
Go Slow makes you go fast — Practice does NOT make perfect, it makes permanent. So if you have $100 for a couple of boxes of ammo every week — spend it on someone who will tell you what you are doing wrong! — after I did a jump school, I asked a DI if he’d go with me to the range and just watch me for 15 minutes — I made enough mistakes in 15 minutes of close watching to give him 10 years on the life of his voice — because he could watch me — some was run and cover, and some was aim from cover — and you can make a LOT of mistakes — so now before I qualify I have two friends who are ‘Masters’ in my book, watch me — and how many times was I unaware of the background? How many people did I leave without a son or daughter? how many without a mother or father? — Remember the Silver Star M-60 Machine gunner? Don’t forget hit number 10,865 — moving target, caliber of pistol? 22 LR. Number of shots, one. Changed shape before he crumpled straight down 5 feet 7 inches. What caliber was that? TWENTY-TWO LONG RIFLE. Revolver, no casing. recoil? Zero. Cost to practice all day? $20. Arm ache? Arm tired? Mistakes from tired muscles? — none. Hearing loss? none.
Yes the .22 is the weapon of choice for many hit men. Why? Because they use it at point blank range on their target’s head and it doesn’t make much noise. Many assassins use a knife because it makes NO noise. The lack of BANG!!! is the main reason for using a .22. If A .45 acp was as quiet I think you would see that the .45 ACP would be the weapon of choice. Many targets have lived after being shot in the head with a .22, but it’s heart to find anything left of a head shot with a .45 ACP.
last time i checked Jim is the FBI trainer
What a load of unmitigated rambo crap.
Funny Charlie !!!
Charlie, take a moment and write something worth reading. This article was about guns and ammo, not about Rambo’s fecal matter. Maybe you don’t know enough about guns and ammunition to say anything worth reading. If that is the case you might want to visit the Disney site.
Hate to say it, because I like shooting, like my magnum pistol, .30 cal rifle, shotgun.
HOWEVER — what will put them down with only a marginal hit? Taser. No collateral damage, almost no fatalities, the civvy version gives a long enough ride you can get out of sight or get handcuffs out.
No, it is not perfect, and not [usually] a repeater, and you still have to aim.
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Another thing, although I like my big bores [large holes in paper are easier to see] the .22RF is a wonderful thing. Penetrates more than a magnum, accurate, quiet, easy on the hands. Fun to shoot all day long in everything but the most ridiculously small pistol. Fun practice means aim, fire, repeat, becomes an automated process. The grip angles on High Standards, Buckmarks, Ruger MK 1,2,3, even the Neos, all very ‘pointable’, ten rounds is normal capacity in a comfortable grip size. Even the old H&R .22 revolvers held 9 rounds! Ammunition is cheap, juries don’t consider the little .22 to be an ‘killer’s’ gun.
The number one answer, however, is stay out of trouble. Many LEOs have talked their way out of nasty spots, and although you can’t dodge a bullet, literally, when that muzzle comes around to you, you can get out of it’s way. Unless it is your job to play hard with those bad boys, staying out of trouble is easier than you think. Swaggering in with your sidearm thinking you’re Stud McShootem ends in jail or the ER.
The weapon that holds the most threat to the average American civilian is the automobile. Kills more every year than firearms, and the percentage of innocent victims of automobiles is much higher than the percentage of people who take a bullet and were innocent.
Don’t bet your LIFE on a Tazer!!!
I have a good friend who had his son and his son’s partner (Florida Police Officers) shot by a perp the partner had Tazed and was attempting to cuff. Perp drew a concealed pistol from his pants and shot my friend’s son in the face, then shot the partner several times.
Kinch just got back from Washington recently after a ceremony for all the fallen officers. Tazed ain’t necessarily down-for-the-count!
I think that is the most naive statement I have ever read. I am a law enforcement officer and let me tell you, every bad guy that gets tazed doesn’t go straight down and wiggle around like the ones you see on your favorite reality tv shows(COPS). I’ve actually seen a subject get hit with a taser and rip the prongs out of his skin and continue the fight. Tasers are a great intermediate weapon and are sometimes useful when facing a single attacker who is not armed with a deadly weapon. Even if the subject is able to remove the prongs and continue the fight you can usually transition to your firearm or other intermediate weapon in about the same amount of time, which is what happened to my fellow agent. When he transitioned to his sidearm the subject immediately stopped, did an about face, and ran. If this subject could reach with his hands and remove those prongs don’t you think that if he had a pistol in his hand he could have fired it just as easily, and probably multiple times? So based on your above comment let’s say that you are faced with a bad guy with a weapon and you are lucky enough to deploy your taser and use it on the guy and he goes down. Great. What you forgot was his buddy who was standing in the shadows or behind a car or wherever who now is pissed at what you did to his friend and is pretty confident that you don’t have a gun or you would have used it. I hope you can outrun whatever caliber he’s carrying!!!!
You also have to think about how a taser works. The electrical current causes the muscles to flex and seize. If the bad guy’s finger is on a trigger there is the possibility that he can inadvertently pull the trigger when tased. So really in a round about way you just might shoot yourself.
Yes, the taser is a useful intermediate weopon for law enforcement officers who are trained on how and more importantly WHEN to use it effectively. But guess what, no law enforcement agency in the entire country would advocate their officers using a taser against an armed assailant. Period. It’s just setting yourself up for failure.
I could continue but have wasted enough time replying to someone who is probably too stubborn and candya$$ed to actually admit that sometimes the only way to save your own life is by taking someone elses.
I think that the point of the article was that we really can’t assume ‘hollywood’ endings to gunfights. He backs that up with a lot of real, observed data, not ballistics theory. All I can say is ‘thanks’ for the good info. BTW, the video is amazing. Those five holes in the target ARE from those five shots, right?
Well, as a Marine who went through boot in 65 & saw lots of kills in VN, what the Doc said is mostly true.
I will tell you that 45s stopped better than the 38s & 9mms that were used & the 7.62 was way better than 5.56.
Yes, cover & concealment, movement, well aimed shots & as I was told & practiced in war, 2 in the chest, 1 in the head! (or more if needed) Not many have ever continued with their mellon popped.
The article by Higginbothem was OK with some good points & food for thought although a little convoluted at times.
It still comes down to a simple rule, know how to & be trained to deliver, “two to the chest & one to the head”.
Wouldn’t it even be better— and it can’t be a hard shot if most of the gunfights are under 15 feet–(even though the ‘quite a few’ ones i was in as a cop were longer distances usually) to go 1st shot and rapid repeat ALL to the ‘HADE’, as they say in ‘da hood’??? I only shoot a couple boxes a week on average and i can quick draw instinctively to a single head shot with about 90% all out speed (average -3to4 tenths of a second) every and any time but if i use my ‘full auto trigger finger’ for super rapid 3-4 succession shots like his video up there, then every one of my quick draws is 100% of at least one hit to the head, And even a scalper kiss off, or chin nick should be more stunning in concussive reaction then other body shots to stop reactions. Then of course, if you want zombie insurance, continue to rapidly insert a few in CM? This should be all with one hand, by the way.
Sight Aiming with a firearm, even at close range, of course, is always better, but under an instant adrenalin surge experienced martial arts instructors know that your fine motor movements get seriously compromised, and this will cost time, and still might not be effective. IMH-40plus years of instructing-O, fast, instinctive muscle memory cqb shooting is the superior way to train for most suprise encounter personal pistol fights. slow and sure might eventually make it, but Speed –with overwhelming firepower always– kills!
Based upon what guys coming back from the jungle patrols were reporting when making sudden in your face contact on trails and such cqb firefights, some of you might remember the ‘quick kill training’ with bb guns in your Ranger or Advanced Infantry Training? They threw up a little model car tire about the size of a half dollar filled with a replaceable cardboard disk and you whipped up your (Daisy/Red Rider i think) bb rifle and ‘instinctively’ with hand-eye coordination ‘point shot’ the small target out to five meters or so, consistantly after only a few hours of training! Some bow shooters can do smaller than headsized clays all day long at 10 meters. With the new semi-auto quality bb pistols now, which are more than accurate enough to practice head shots and 15 feet, it’s actually cheap, but highly effective training. You’d be surprised how good you can get in a relatively short time.
But if If you are already good enough to do a third follow up to the head, why would you waste time with “two to the chest and one to the head” ? which would likely be harder because if you ‘double tapped’ the torso the body should at least be moving more than standing mostly still, after getting hit, which would likely even be falling, which means the head is moving down and and much harder to aim at and hit?
And just so everybody knows the reality, the 2/CM-1/head method was designed by PD training departments mainly for Liability justification later in court. (Also to increase the likelihood of a less than optimally trained officer to at least achieve a modicum of potential stopping power with an easier shot placement to the torso.) IOW, “why did you immediatley shoot him between the eyes, officer? Couldn’t you just have wounded him in the leg or shoulder? After all, he was only wielding a two inch pocket knife and you have THE most powerful .45 ACP pistol cartridge in the world?” Which could have turned his knife hand into pink dust, thus ending the problem just as fast,, without ‘murdering’, i mean using unnessary deadly force? Do you prefer to Kill people, officer?” Do you LIKE killing people, officer?!”
I know it’s changed now but back in the days there was a differentiation between shooting to kill and shooting to wound. Especially with police shot gun usage. Chicago’s Mayor Daley illustrated this in 1968 with his (in)famous martial law order to ‘shoot to kill’ firebombers, as opposed to just ‘shooting’ the looters. (by the way, for those of you who persist in being ‘moutholutionaries’, and fantasize that police and ‘our military’ brothers won’t shoot there own brothers and sisters and neighbor civilians, in a ‘righteous revolution’ here’s a ball buster for you. They certainly will. And without hesitation. Hell, they do it all the time now, with ordinary criminals. When the G says “okay men, we have organized terrorists organizing anti-American criminals posing as demonstrators but really out to kill as many police and military as they can to disrupt the country, so they can take it over, and of course have you all hanged as criminals by their own authority…” Don’t bet your life on police and military being on ‘your’ side.
Anyway, i once saw an ARVN stitched with a .45 greasegun right in front of me. the pattern may have been assisted by the full auto burst muzzle rise because it went up from the left thigh with a hit about 4-6 inches diagonally up to his right shoulder. maybe 8 hits. We figured he was deceased immediately so we weren’t even looking at him until he burped blood and we saw he was alive! The medic plugged him up and he was eventually dusted off and we figured he’d expire anyway on the chopper ride to the 71st evac, but guess what? Yup, he was back in the saddle, limping, commanding his team a few weeks later!
For CQB jungle work i finally settled with a 9mm Swedish K subgun with 36 rounds in stick and a 70 round drum. Basically it came down to this. Not having to switch magazines having at least a few seconds of steady firepower beats all other odds in a short-lived (pun) psycho firefight. Imho.
So, I agree with Tom above about ‘know how to fight & be trained to deliver’, but i say ‘deliver’ first rapid volley to the ‘hade’, and whatever else you wanna do after that.
Its still better to be tried by twelve than carried by six. At least you have a chance to come out alive and at home.
Regarding doc8404. Sir, you at first describe a set of actions taking place in 6/10,000ths of a second!!!!!!!
That’s six ten-thousandths of a second. then you describe another set of actions taking place in 1/1,000,000th of a second.
Sir, an ignited round of a 3,000 ft. per second bullet does not LEAVE THE bARREL that fast. Later you state”put one bullet on to (sic) of another….but spread them out. You are either from a parallel universe and found your way into ours
or you think that your experience on “Call of Duty” is reality.
When talking about ending a gun fight you really talk to someone who has both been in a gunfight and has a lot of practrice operating on same!
Jim, is it okay to post the text of your article (as well as a link to this page) on the calguns.net forum? If it isn’t please let me know and I will have it removed. We are having a good discussion about it.
We would prefer you use an excerpt and link to the full article.
I have been preaching this to my freinds ever since I got back from my first deployment downrange. All of the myths that were taught as fact that I had learned over the years rapidly disappeared. On my third deployment I was hit three times with 7.62 “Center Mass” and I was able to hang on and fight for 45 minutes before getting medevaced out. Granted, I had a vest on, which only served to slow the bullets down, but I was not out of the fight. I took one in the liver, one hit my lung and one hit my spleen. Even with all this damage I was able to move to cover and return carefully aimed fire to help hold our position. I’ve seen guys go down with one shot and some who seemed like superman, taking full mags “Center Mass”, before going down.
Ya know, the most amazing thing about most of our “rants, stories & advice herein”, boils down to this…, whatever your cal./size of choice, become very proficient with it, shoot/practice as often as possible. You don’t even need to load it.
Presentation is 1/2 the battle. If ya drop it, ya bought it! Carrying, is a great responsability. COD from 22 cal. or 45acp, dead is dead!
I consider this a very good article… sort of tells it like it is. I’ve only killed one man in a gun fight and it was really bad and didn’t come out anywhere near what Hollywood depicts.
I would summarize the article as showing that you need to put a few big holes, or lots of little ones into the bad guy so he bleeds out quicker. Preventing sufficient blood to the brain stops all.
First and last, always avoid trouble!
If its your job, make up your mind, shoot or dont shoot but you must decide before the problem not after.
Get out of the damn way, shoot from cover.
“Never brag about killing a perp, they are all someones brother, sister, mother, father, etc. someone will miss them!
Never look back, it can kill you as sure as a bad guys bullit, you did what you were forced to do, thats it!
Do not analize the why factor, just shut down the situation, your job is to contain the situation to the smallest possible aera of destruction, do your best, move on!
Larry
I hope I am not commenting twice on the same thing, but Higginbotham’s article prompted me to write a post on my own blog related to this topic. I think Jim’s article is spot on and I add some thoughts of my own based on personal experience that has nothing to do with ballistics study. http://crime-thugs-guns.blogspot.com/2011/09/center-mass-myth-and-ending-gunfight.html
Its funny that out of his article, the only thing that most of you took out of it was “caliber”. Ive personally trained with Jim while in the Army and served for ten years, and the one single thing that he preaches is effective fire. I quote….”There is also not “one true gun”. Your skill is far more important that what you carry, within reason. We are not really talking about “stopping power”, whatever that is, here but rather effectiveness”. I’ve seen people take 7-8 hits with a .45 caliber and keep moving, and I’ve seen the same with the 9mm, both instances were poorly placed shots…..Effective fire is the key, plain and simple not caliber
“I’ve seen people take 7-8 hits with a .45 caliber and keep moving,” Sure you have.
Even though Im a member of the “45 1911″ cult I see the validity of this article. We’ve known for years that smaller calibers penetrate more effectively because that’s why they developed the 38 super for all the mobsters who first started using body armor and armored cars. As far as knock down power goes, there are too many factors. One I didn’t see listed was what substances that bad guy is on. There are many stories out there of people unloading on pcp and crack addicts and they run away.
IMO I think the main points Mr. Higgenbotham was trying to get across were TRY to make the shots count and keep shooting until they do regardless of caliber. I may have misinterpreted it, but feel regardless of caliber, shoot what you shoot best. I know in my mind I can put 5 effective rounds into someone with my 9mm faster than I could a .45. But that doesn’t mean that someone else couldn’t.
I love reading posts where people get upset because someone doesnt like their caliber or their make of gun, its ok to feel that way because that particular cal. or make is what is your favorite and probably what you can shoot best; or at least you bought into what someone else told you about it, either way your frame of mind towards your gun is right. Thats my 2 cents.
Thank you for this fascinating writeup!
I find myself to be in the rather interesting position of being well-versed in both human anatomy/physiology/psychology (I am in the field of Psychopharmacology) as well as in the handling and use of weapons (worked at a small local “Gun Shop” (FFL) that specialized in military and police weapons; I also have competed in various levels of Practical Pistol/Rifle competitions and have 6 years of Krav Maga training: the only part that arguably is of any benefit is the Krav Maga, and even then I couldn’t personally say).
I have a license to carry a concealed weapon, which I do: a Sig Sauer P226E2 (.357SIG) most of the time, occasionally a Kimber Custom 4.5″ 1911 (.45ACP). This is because I work around highly valuable pharmaceuticals and my access to these chemicals could make me a target, according to our security team (active and retired police and retired military, mostly). Luckily, I have never been in any such situation.
It is interesting, though, that so many people have one perception of how they would act in a situation in which they are threatened by one or multiple people with firearms, with the majority of people assuming that they would be able to overtake/overpower the “bad guys” without an issue. It is fairly basic human psychology, as we all see ourselves as the “hero” of our own story, and it doesn’t matter whether you prefer your stories in print, in spoken word, or at 24 frames per second: we are raised on stories in which the hero always wins.
There has only been one time in my adult life in which I truly believed my life was in danger, and that was when two people broke into my home in the middle of the night (after breaking into 5 neighbors’ homes) to steal electronics for drug money. They were on the first floor and I could hear them from my bedroom (second floor), so they obviously weren’t the stealthiest pair of criminals. I decided to forgo the handgun and grabbed the Remington 870 Express Tactical (“AR” Stock Mount w Magpul CTR Stock, ERGO Pistol Grip, SureFire Integrated Foregrip Weaponlight w 3LED 500lum head, 18″ barrel, Ghost Sights, EOTech XPS3.0). It was loaded with 3.75″ 12ga Beanbag rounds, which is the reason I grabbed it (7+1 tube with the first 4 shells being beanbag and the last 4 being 3.75 Magnum #4 Buck).
When I confronted the two young men, shining the light full-blast towards their faces as they turned around, I realized that both were armed; one was holding a knock-off 1911 and the other a knock-off M11. I told them to get the f**k out and to put down their weapons, and while the first was putting his down, the second lifted his up. A beanbag to the ribs followed by a second to the groin (aiming for his stomach) put him down quick and his buddy was out of there before he hit the ground. The police arrived within 90sec and actually “commended” me for using less-lethal rounds, as it meant that unless the kid (and by kid, I mean 20s) died, I would never even be questioned about using excessive force; and I live in a state where it is legal to shoot anyone who breaks into your property with any weapon you have, whether it’s a slingshot or pellet rifle or a Browning M2HB or Barrett M82.
Anyway, the point is: in my very limited experience, a very high-powered “less lethal” round can be extremely effective, although I would never load a weapon with only less-lethal rounds (I like a max of 50:50) because if they don’t have the target down hard, a couple follow-up shots of 12ga Magnum buck sure will.
Even though these are “bad guys”, it doesn’t mean they are inherently “bad people”: addiction and the like can do terrible things to good people, and I don’t believe that I have the right to take a life unless there is absolutely no other option and it is to save myself or the life of another person.
Send the message downrange, but don’t send a death sentence unless you have to.
PS: of course, this does NOT apply everywhere; I could have just as easily grabbed my HK416 (Safe/Semi/Full) or USP.45 and not given them nearly as much of a chance, but it didn’t seem warranted.
Outstanding article and excellent video…
Okay so everywhere someone will take a ‘part’ of this article and try to shred it. The author states numerous times that “nothing is certain” and points out without equivocating that his, as an example, number of shots is completely dependent upon other factors and even then still a ‘question.’
I’ve seen a guy shot at point blank range in the face with a 12ga… double O… did not die! Right, as it turned out the barrel was a few degrees off center, hit the mandible and maxillary bones and slide off to one side taking most of his face.
I’ve seen a guy shot 16 times with a .38… did not die… well, he did but many days later of a heart attack! Of course some were center mass, some were not!
I’ve seen a guy get shot ‘directly’ in the back of his head with a .38… it bounced off! I’ve also seen a man get hit with a Cocobolo nightstick, he just looked at the cop! Of course I’ve seen guys pull out the stingers… and I’ve talked to a guy for five minutes who, unbeknownst to us, had a butcher knife stuck in his back sticking straight out… never flinched and it was a good three inches or more in!
Human physiology, even under normal circumstances and not juiced up, is amazing. I’ve seen a 78 year old women pull her hand out of the hands of an uber-strong cop breaking two of her own fingers doing it and never cry out or stop resisting! Do not ever count on anything as a sure thing when “your life is on the line.” I saw a medium build man get hit with a good lead sap directly behind his right ear delivered by an experienced cop (after that bad guy broke the arm of the first responding police officer) and the suspect just shook his head and went to throwing punches! Add in PCP or other types of drugs, stimulants and so forth and the ‘Super Heroes’ start to look about average!
So folks need to realize that under certain conditions and circumstances all things are unsure. And ‘if’ your life is on the line and those things are up for grabs then you have to do your best to get the hits and not get hit and then wait and see what happens in ten or fifteen minutes (as long as you ain’t bleedin’ out!) and wait for that soft exhale and the final relaxing of the feet and a limpness… and then wait a little longer. And then see if someone else wants to check out the bad guy… cover down, be safe and never be too sure.
(And to those who doubt some of the comments here, ‘I’ve seen people take 7-8 hits with a .45′, and so forth, you are fools! I have as well… a 12ga slug and three good hits with a .45 and the guy ran around the corner and was coming up with his pistol when the final shot was delivered… that was “ran around the corner” folks. Don’t show your lack of experience by trying to refute experience)
On a YouTube video I saw, 9mm has more destructive power than the .45 because of the velocity of the smaller caliber. The demonstrator used wooded blocks as target and 9mm destroyed more on the wood & penetrated further. When shooting a threat for defense, you want your bullet travel faster, further, and accruer than the threat but again, shoot what you are comfortable with and capable of handling. Your psychological in using the firearms is more important the caliber itself. Depend on which situation you are in, calibers of course matter.
People asked which is better, 5.45X39 or 5.56X45? In the firefight for life, like I mention you want your bullet get their first, further and accurately, the AR-15/M-16 will do that for you. For dependent and durability, AK of course is lengedary. The AR platform is more simpler these days so it is not difficult to learn, plus M4 is easier to handle than AK in tight quarter. The disadvantage between AR vs AK is the price, AR costs considerable more but these days AKs also get up there in price. If you are in the U.S. & NATO country, use AR platform; in communism block, AK.
For handguns, what AK to rifle is Glock to pistol. Glock even has automatic which is incredibly impressive. Glock’s simplicity and reliability is second to none. When I saw this pistol first came out, I knew right away it is the best pistol there is in the market and sure enough it is. LE all over the world used Glock and never look back. They choose .40 because .45 is too strong in recoil and 9mm is weaker in power. What you train regularly you will get better at it so practice your shooting and it get better in whatever caliber you use. Hoo!
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